My doooces

[WalkAmongUs]

The required pot size of 14BB does not include bets we put into the pot. Thats quite a bit of ground to be gained.

Also, are you going to continue after the flop misses you and there are nothing but overcards to your pair on the board?

If not, you're paying 3SB just to take a look at a flop. Too expensive IMO. Maybe if it was like a 7 way pot where you got some really good implied odds...

[lautzutao]

This is what I never understand when these questions come up with pairs and preflop capping...

If a villian's hand is good enough to 3-bet with, and another villian's hand is good enough to cap with, why wouldn't you expect to get the SB back that you would need to make this call profitable(it's about 20SB correct to break even here?)

These types of hands that are betting like this preflop are going to give us the type of action we need to make up this deficit aren't they? It's not like they're capping and calling preflop then folding to a postflop raise...there's going to be 3-betting and possibly capping on multiple streets if we hit our set on the flop.

And yeah, I said 20:4 and I'm an idiot for not precisely sitting and typing that we're only putting in 3.5 or 2.5 SB...I'm a gorilla math type of guy [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

* grunch *

A high variance play, no doubt, but with MP3's (presumably) dead money (and with hopefully more to come) and with the implied odds why not?? Without the cold-call it's a fold though, right?

[adsman]

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Hello.

Help!

I've been at the table for a few orbits.

UTG is a somewhat loose and very aggressive player (say like 28/16), MP2 is a bad player like (40/1), MP3 seems to be good, solid, and aggressive (and so far is like 24/15 but only after 25 hands or so and seems to be getting good cards). BB limps too much and is fairly passive overall but hasn't done anything remarkable so far.

Full ring 1/2

Fishaholic is SB with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG raises, folded to MP2 calls two cold, MP3 3-bets, Hero calls??...

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ok. fine. fair enough on the points raised...
i felt there was a great chance BB calls and a small chance UTG capped. unfortunately, BB folded but at least UTG didn't cap. MP2 called one more.

Flop: (4 ppl, 13 sb) T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, UTG checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets... what do I do?

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If you raise you're offering everyone 7 to 1 which are decent enough odds to chase most draws. Apart from hitting a 2 though, you couldn't really have asked for a better flop for your little pocket pair. If the players left to act aren't too tricky and if MP3 will continue to bet the turn with overcards if a blank drops, then I call the flop planning to check-raise a blank on the turn.
But I'm running good at the moment so maybe that's a biased decision.

[tiltaholic]

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Hello.

Help!

I've been at the table for a few orbits.

UTG is a somewhat loose and very aggressive player (say like 28/16), MP2 is a bad player like (40/1), MP3 seems to be good, solid, and aggressive (and so far is like 24/15 but only after 25 hands or so and seems to be getting good cards). BB limps too much and is fairly passive overall but hasn't done anything remarkable so far.

Full ring 1/2

Fishaholic is SB with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG raises, folded to MP2 calls two cold, MP3 3-bets, Hero calls??...

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ok. fine. fair enough on the points raised...
i felt there was a great chance BB calls and a small chance UTG capped. unfortunately, BB folded but at least UTG didn't cap. MP2 called one more.

Flop: (4 ppl, 13 sb) T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, UTG checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets... what do I do?

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I would fold, I think a good aggressive player is 3betting PF here with a big overpair way too often to think about putting in any more money here.

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interesting that you say that, since i was thinking a good aggressive player is much more likely to not have a premium overpair in this situation given the over aggressiveness of UTG and the badness of MP2. and he basically needs to auto-bet the flop no matter what...

(though i agree his actions are also consistent with a big pair)

[tiltaholic]

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grunching

You're in the SB. Throw it away. Calling this is worse than calling 3 cold from the button.

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actually i think i'd much rather be in my current position than calling 3 cold from the button, since i could flop a set with great relative position to the pf 3-bettor. so i think your bland statement of the seemingly obvious is wrong.

[tiltaholic]

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Hello.

Help!

I've been at the table for a few orbits.

UTG is a somewhat loose and very aggressive player (say like 28/16), MP2 is a bad player like (40/1), MP3 seems to be good, solid, and aggressive (and so far is like 24/15 but only after 25 hands or so and seems to be getting good cards). BB limps too much and is fairly passive overall but hasn't done anything remarkable so far.

Full ring 1/2

Fishaholic is SB with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG raises, folded to MP2 calls two cold, MP3 3-bets, Hero calls??...

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ok. fine. fair enough on the points raised...
i felt there was a great chance BB calls and a small chance UTG capped. unfortunately, BB folded but at least UTG didn't cap. MP2 called one more.

Flop: (4 ppl, 13 sb) T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, UTG checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets... what do I do?

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I called. UTG called (thankfully didn't checkraise). MP2 called.

Turn. 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I lead. fold call call.

River Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I lead. call call.

mhig (not that i played it right...)

[tiltaholic]

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Nobody has asked the right question. Are LAG and bad player going to spew postflop? Is LAG the type to raise/3-bet with KK when there's an ace on the board? Is bad player going to call down any pair? These are the questions you need to answer when considering the implied odds of this hand.

With no information on these things, a call here is a little bad, but I don't think it's terrible.

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Good question Aaron & I'm realizing this is one of the reasons I posted this hand.

On the one hand I think UTG is raising very light and might spew a lot of bets. And MP3 could have far from a premium hand and is definitely aggressive and confident enough to 3-bet to isolate 2 players as well as bet a missed flop with overcards. So, in some ways, their aggression helps my implied odds and also helps the fact that my hand could actually still be the best on the flop.

On the other hand, their aggressive tendancies work against me preflop since UTG could cap behind me if I call and against me on the flop, since UTG could be planning to checkraise with many hands if I call (or raise).

[tiltaholic]

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Flop: (4 ppl, 13 sb) T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, UTG checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets... what do I do?

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I would fold. At this point, the pot is so bloated that you probably can not force UTG and MP2 out by raising. Calling is the worst possible move.

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Why is calling the worst possible move? (i ask since I called, figuring it was the best possible move)

[tiltaholic]

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Fold pf. Tempting but just not enough of a margin to take a shot at your set.

Fold the flop. You're spewing by getting involved in this hand postflop. Getting this entire crew to fold when most of them have two overcards to the board and one of them very likely has an overpair seems like a longshot. You will most likely need to take this to SD and I don't like your chances of dodging half the deck on the turn and river if you're miraculously ahead.

Now if your pattern mapper is working and you're spiking a river 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I love it!

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So, I agree that I can't fold people if I raise.
I called thinking 14:1 was "close enough" if they're going to spew on the big streets (hoping UTG didn't check raise) and getting 16:1 when UTG and MP2 call.

bad?