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#31
08-26-2005, 12:38 AM
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Re: Quick poll: what\'s your play on the flop?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I assume that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range might be small, or it could be much wider due to the assumption of Superior post flop play, steaming, or the long shot hope to get the hand heads up and take the lead on the flop (dumb move IMHO, but its amazing how often idiots try). [/ QUOTE ] TT, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious here. But his 3-betting range should be big here. Not for the purpose of taking the lead or whatever. But for the sake of getting HU with some extra dead money in the pot. This is not a bad 3-bet with something like 77/88 or A9/AT. I mean, meeps range of raising hands on the button with one bad limper and tight blinds should be freakin huge. So BB's range of 3-betting hands should not be small. Chief [/ QUOTE ] serious... how often do you think the BB can force the hand heads up when the limper is already in the pot? 95% of the time the limper thinks he is pot committed to see the flop. Yes with decent premium hands its an excellent 3-bet for value (dead money assumed from limper), but small pairs? A waste of time, yet I see this more often than I ever expect to see from tight and aggressive unknowns. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 
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#32
08-26-2005, 01:37 AM
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Re: Quick poll: what\'s your play on the flop?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I assume that since the BB is a TAG his 3-betting range might be small, or it could be much wider due to the assumption of Superior post flop play, steaming, or the long shot hope to get the hand heads up and take the lead on the flop (dumb move IMHO, but its amazing how often idiots try). [/ QUOTE ] TT, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious here. But his 3-betting range should be big here. Not for the purpose of taking the lead or whatever. But for the sake of getting HU with some extra dead money in the pot. This is not a bad 3-bet with something like 77/88 or A9/AT. I mean, meeps range of raising hands on the button with one bad limper and tight blinds should be freakin huge. So BB's range of 3-betting hands should not be small. Chief [/ QUOTE ] serious... how often do you think the BB can force the hand heads up when the limper is already in the pot? 95% of the time the limper thinks he is pot committed to see the flop. Yes with decent premium hands its an excellent 3-bet for value (dead money assumed from limper), but small pairs? A waste of time, yet I see this more often than I ever expect to see from tight and aggressive unknowns. TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] If the UTG limper is superbad, you've got something great working for you in the form of a protected pot-bluff when you may/may not have the best hand. It's also a lot easier to force a weak TAG to fold a better hand OTB or to force them to incorrectly fold a 6-outer. It's not a play I employ frequently, but I would generally consider 88 to be a 3-bet here and 77, depending on the limper and the buttuon, to certainly be worth considering. Rob
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#33
08-26-2005, 02:51 AM
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Re: Quick poll: what\'s your play on the flop?
Raise. You get more information raising than calling here. If he reraises you, lay it down.
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#35
08-26-2005, 03:18 AM
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Re: Quick poll: what\'s your play on the flop?
[ QUOTE ]
1) Were you born retarded, and why? 2) Were you always worthless and weak, and why? [/ QUOTE ] Well put.
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#36
08-26-2005, 08:50 AM
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Re: Quick poll: what\'s your play on the flop?
It all comes back to what you think he is three-betting with. I do put the guy on a fairly narrow range in a full ring game at least (6 max is different).
Think about it this way--and think about it from a SSH point of view. Pretend you raise a MP limper, and the villain is behind you (i.e., he has position on you postflop). What hands will he 3-bet with? What hands does SSH tell him to 3-bet with? The range is narrow. The "tight game" chart in SSH says to reraise AA-TT and AK. The "loose game" chart in SSH says to reraise AA-TT, AKs-AJs, KQs, and AK. Since this pot will likely be 3 handed (or 4 handed at most), the SSH tight game chart probably applies, since there isnt much implied multiway value. If the villain's three-betting range is narrow with position, it should be even narrower from the blind. So when the read said "TAG", my assumption is "this guy is not a monkey", and give him the respect that a three-bet from the blind deserves. I just dont encounter that many people three-betting middle pairs from the blind against a raise, in a 3 way pot.
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#37
08-26-2005, 08:59 AM
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Re: Quick poll: what\'s your play on the flop?
TT,
Considering the range button should be raising with here (and I assume meep would have a really big range since he seems to be a good player) it's really not a bad value 3-bet with the hands I listed whether the limper calls or folds anyway. I didn't mean with 22. But I see 88 as a very standard 3-bet here and I will 3-bet with 66/77 as well if button is like a 12% pfr. It would take a lot of convincing for me to believe that's in any way wrong. Chief
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#38
08-26-2005, 09:01 AM
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Re: Quick poll: what\'s your play on the flop?
[ QUOTE ]
The way you played it I call the flop and raise most turn cards. If the turn is an A or K I'm just calling. [/ QUOTE ] How could calling on a turned ace be correct?
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#39
08-26-2005, 09:07 AM
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Re: Quick poll: what\'s your play on the flop?
I think it really comes down to what you think BB's 3-betting range is here. All that was given was that he was a TAG, so I assumed it was a big range...as it should be. And he's not going to check an ace on the turn. Although an ace on the turn does make it much less likely we're ahead.
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#40
08-26-2005, 09:11 AM
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Re: Quick poll: what\'s your play on the flop?
[ QUOTE ]
Considering the range button should be raising with here (and I assume meep would have a really big range since he seems to be a good player) it's really not a bad value 3-bet with the hands I listed whether the limper calls or folds anyway. I didn't mean with 22. But I see 88 as a very standard 3-bet here and I will 3-bet with 66/77 as well if button is like a 12% pfr. It would take a lot of convincing for me to believe that's in any way wrong [/ QUOTE ] Im not sure why you think the button's standards are so low here. I would guess the button is raising pairs down to 99, offsuit aces down to ATo, suited aces down to A9s, suited broadway cards, and big offsuit broadway like KQo. Raising small pairs against this range of hands OOP is pretty marginal, since you're most likely a coinflip or you're buried, and the flop is hard to play OOP against an aggressive player who will raise a number of scary flops after being the preflop raiser.
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