Ban the Swastika

[Il_Mostro]

Now, isn't this exactly why some people in the US want's to do an overhaul of SS? You have the same problems.

Maybe the economies of Europe is going down, but at the moment it's not our currency that's in free-fall, not us that need 2.8 billion$ (some 80% of the total world savings, as far as i've read) in foreign loans every day to go around, not us that will go bankrupt if the rest of the world decides to stop throwing good money after bad.

I'd say we're in this togehter. And this at the end of cheap oil, with no viable alternatives in sight.

[Bez]

UK has the 2nd largest economy in Europe, not France. Unless you're referring to Europe as meaning the Eurozone then fairplay.

[BadBoyBenny]

Not disagreeing, I really don't know. But I have a question.

Is this real GDP growth rate or nominal rate (local currency)? If it's local currency, then the Euro's rise over the dollar would help cover the gap.

[Cyrus]

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Average unemployment rate in Europe is 10% and the GDP growth percentage of Old European countries like France is 1.7% and for Germany is 1.8%.

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Your understanding is choppy. Let's see why.

You are calling (like that idiot Rumsfeld) France and the other "core" EU countries, Old Europe. By default, the newer EU members, such as Poland, etc, are your New Europe.

So, you are disparaging "Old Europe's" economies. Impressive chutzpah.

Just answer me this, please: Is it currently preferable to (A) invest, and/or (B) reside in Old Europe or in New Europe ?

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The Karl Marx-lite economic policies are killing Old Europe slowly.

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What do you call "Karl Marx lite"? The greater percentage (comparatively to the US) of the GNP coming out of the state sector? It's not as greater as to cause systemic inefficiencies.

Or, perhaps the much greater social care provided in "Old Europe", in its various manifestations? The weaker disparity in income distribution among the people? (Doesn't the GINI count for anything anymore?)

A case in point of your fallacious thinking is this morcel. You say

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Back in the 1970s Europe had a lower unemployment rate than the US and a much healthier GDP growth than they do today.

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Back in the 1970s (and before), "Old Europe" had a MUCH greater state sector, MORE dirigiste economies, HIGHER taxation in general, and at least as big a chunk of GNP diverted to social care as today.

So, to quote Dustin Hoffman from Marathon Man, What Are You Saying??

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I have data to back up why I think Old Europe is self destructing economically.

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Wow. A present from the internet which will keep me amused for the weekend. Great value. Can't wait.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Felix_Nietsche]

"Back in the 1970s (and before), "Old Europe" had a MUCH greater state sector, MORE dirigiste economies, HIGHER taxation in general, and at least as big a chunk of GNP diverted to social care as today."

****Greater state sector? Huh?! Care to back that up. According to OECD statistics (table 8.2)
French Govt Taxes as % of GDP increase 31% from 1968-98.
German Govt Taxes as % of GDP increased 17.1% from 1968-98.
Swedish Govt Taxes as % of GDP increased 48.6% from 1968-98.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start...pdf&e=9901
Old European politicians love to play Santa Claus with other people's money....

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. Again, I won't hold my breath that you will actually back up these absurb claims... You are indeed living in a land of make believe. Take my advice and concede it was during a drunken stupor that you mistakenly made the above claims and I will say no more about...

Obviously you and Old Europe have not heard the cold war is over.

Adam Smith won and Karl Marx lost.

Old Europe is afraid to let go of their "Karl Marx Lite" economies. The producers of a country can support only so many parasites before the economy falls too its knees. Old Europe needs a Ronald Reagan badly to cut taxes and regulation so that their economies can show a healthy growth. But they will never elect a Reagan until they hit rock bottom. Which will occur in the next 30-50 years...

"Just answer me this, please: Is it currently preferable to (A) invest, and/or (B) reside in Old Europe or in New Europe ?"
****Here is my answer.
(A)It is preferable to invest in economies that show strong growth. Since New Europe has stronger growth than Old Europe, I would invest in New Europe.
(B)Depends. If I was financially independent and did not have to work and pay taxes, then my choices would be betwwen Prague, Paris, Amsterdam, or Frankfort. If I was starting a business and wanted to make big$, then New Europe is the best place to go. I would lean toward Prague because the girls I saw there were quite nice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] and it was inexpensive.

Once again supporting facts trumps wishful thinking and movie quotes...

[Voltron87]

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I don't think it should be banned in the US, it is a form of speech, etc, but I can think if Germany wants to ban it that would be reasonable.

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So is freedom of speech only good for Americans?

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You're an idiot. It would be ok to ban it in Germany because of the stigma associated with the Holocaust.

[Cyrus]

You should learn to look at things you do not like without so much as your blood pressure rising.

You claimed that the economies of "OLD EUROPE" are getting "killed" by their "Karl Marx-lite economic policies".

Well, you are wrong. If indeed the "OLD EUROPE" economies are not doing well, this is most certainly NOT because they are following some kind of "leftist" policy. If anything, all western European countries have moved towards more privatisations of public sector companies, total liberalisation of movements of labour, capital and trade across European frontiers, generally lower ranges of taxation of corporations and citizens, lower levels of deficit-financed government projects, more stringent (i.e. anti-labour) policies, less people working for the public sector as a percentage of labour force, etc.

Felix : "Back in the 1970s Europe had a lower unemployment rate than the US and a much healthier GDP growth than they do today."

Cyrus : "Back in the 1970s (and before), "Old Europe" had a MUCH greater state sector, MORE dirigiste economies, HIGHER taxation in general, and at least as big a chunk of GNP diverted to social care as today."

In response, you focused exclusively on the level of taxes as a percentage of GDP, which you "discovered" has grown since the 60s. True enough as table 8.2 in your link shows, but look closer at that table! The change in taxes (as a percentage of GDP) from 1965 to 1998 in the whole of OECD averaged 43%. France, Germany, Britain, the "OLD EUROPE", was way behind that average.

But the factor that you ignore is that, since the 1960s, there has been a colossal amount of privatisation in western Europe. The telecommunications sector alone would suffice to show the enormity of the achievements. Those state entities went private and started paying taxes! What was once possibly un-productive, probably mismanaged and certainly not paying taxes, turned into a tax-paying (and usually big) corporation. Which is another factor why that percentage has shot up.

I'll say it again: The western European governments since the 1970s have engaged in turning their economies --others less, others more so-- towards the "neo-liberal", right-wing, aggressively capitalist model. ALL governments -- from the Italian leftist "Olive" (that's a political coalition, yes) to the Spanish rightist Popular Party (currently somewhat unpopular). ALL governments "downsized the state sector, turned less dirigiste, lowered taxation in general, and cut off big chunks of social care programs from GNP."

I happen to disagree with some (not all) those moves, for specific reasons, grounded in reality and not ideology, but seeing ignorant people, such as you, turning things upside down and assigning blame for the European economies on their "leftist economic policies" (!) is not adding insult to injury -- it's adding imbecility to insult.

BTW, I noticed you are using the term "OLD EUROPE" exactly as the idiot Rumsfeld does. How fitting.

[TomBrooks]

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Who should moral rules be decided by if not the majority? The minority? Church? You?

[/ QUOTE ]
Every individual ultimately and rightly determines his own moral guidelines.

Attempts by any person, group, institution or Government, especially by a Government, to impose morality on an individual or a people is almost always unwise and generally unwelcome.

This is not to say that suggested guidelines for living wisely and happily made by family, friends, and religious or cultural organizations are bad. Quite the contrary. But the key word there is 'suggested', versus 'decided.' Certainly, most Governments are amongst the least qualified institutions imaginable to assert a superior knowledge of morality.

And it is an essential prerequisite for freedom that the rights of the minority be protected from the oppression of the majority.

- TomBk

[Felix_Nietsche]

"I'll say it again: The western European governments since the 1970s have engaged in turning their economies --others less, others more so-- towards the "neo-liberal", right-wing, aggressively capitalist model."

****Never have I read so much bull**** in one post.
Since the 1970s? Uh...did you not look at the data I provided?

"But the factor that you ignore is that, since the 1960s, there has been a colossal amount of privatisation in western Europe."
****Then why does this not reflected in the govt growth data I provided?

Until now I just thought you were a person with some kooky ideas. Now I am firmly convinced you are a FRAUD who makes up "facts" to support your preconceived ideas.

You can NOT back up any of the assertions you have made with any govt size as % of GDP.

Show me data of Govt size as a % of GDP that supports your assertions and I will apologize. Otherwise my opinions of you being a fraud who makes up facts to support your posts will remain in place.

SHOW ME GDP data or just concede you made this all up. I simply can not believe anything you say...

[Cyrus]

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Since the 1970s? Uh...did you not look at the data I provided?

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Yes. Have you? Your own data, I mean?

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I am firmly convinced you are a FRAUD who makes up "facts" to support your preconceived ideas.

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Why would I ever want to do that? To impress ..you?? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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You can NOT back up any of the assertions you have made with any govt size as % of GDP.

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Once again: I did not assert anywhere (and I challenge you to show otherwise) that "taxation as a percentage of GDP" rose or declined or whatever. (And I already provided you with one of the reasons behind the "discrepancy" you thought you discovered between your data and my claim: Newly privatized companies, instead of taking in state budget funds, started to pay taxes to the state.)

What I wrote is that the taxation rates of both corporations and individuals have gone down, in general, since the 1970s, in "Old Europe" (to use the term you and the idiot Rumsfeld are using). Nothing "leftist" there.

If you don't believe this (you seem to have gotten your education from the web!), I may dig up some data for you -- when I'm done scratching my balls. It's a promise. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

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"Since the 1960s, there has been a colossal amount of privatisation in western Europe." : Then why does this not [get] reflected in the govt growth data I provided?

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What do you mean, specifically? There have been numerous privatisations across the board in western Europe, yes. (Get with the program and start reading up something beyond WorldNetDaily!) And yes, western Europe's economies have grown since the 1960s -- are you disputing this?

I do not disupte (never disputed) that a lot of western European economies are currently in a slump. I never contested that the EU is perfect, for that matter! But I find your claim that "Old Europe is killing itself by Karl Marx-lite policies" to be laughable.

Like I said : You have no idea what you're talking about.