I have trouble OOP against LAGs

[TheHammer24]

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40/9/2 is loose-aggressive but not maniacal IMO. Yet in discussion, with each of your posts he becomes MORE maniacal. You describe his pfr as an autoraise. How do you know that? And "40/9/2" doesn't tell me he'll "raise the flop 95% of the time" nor does it tell me that he will "often raise the turn" (presumably you mean with nothing).

Your starters are a "Top Pair" kind of hand, and a hand that can be dominated, and you are OOP. You want to flop either a flush draw or top pair. You did neither. Instead you flopped second pair on a board that is highly coordinated and contains an overcard, plus all three cards are in the "playing zone". You may be a little bit ahead, or way behind. I thought your CR was pretty much FPS and bravado, and played into his aggression.

I bet and call the flop hoping to see a good turn card, sort of a "Stop 'N Go". The 4c is no help. Some of the cards that will help your hand on the river are tainted (ie a K if he has a T; any club if he has two in his hand; another overcard.) Your draw to a third Jack is a two-outer.

My thought is I don't want to put a lot more money into this hand. A check here invites a LAG to bet; a bet-out, on the other hand gives him something to think about, as I am representing a made hand. If he calls the bet on the turn, I'm going to the river, where I would check-call.

But a raise by him on the turn would get my attention, and if he raises the turn bet, I'm going to have to put more money in on the river, with a hand that is not very strong.

So for me here, the turn bet is like a test. And a raise by him here means he probably has me beat. I'm not crazy about my chances at this point.

It is true that LAGs and even maniacs get cards once in a while, too. When I go to war with them, I like to have a little better hand than you had here.

After you check-called the turn, and if you were so convinced he had a hand full of crap, why did you fold the river?

In reading over the hand again, it seems to me like you decided when you looked at your starters that you were going to the river because he was "a maniac" and you were probably going to beat him. If that were so, then why the bravado on the flop? Why not just cc at each step, flop, turn, river?

bc

edit: changed "river" to "turn" in next to last paragraph
bc

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I described it as auto-raise because villian had raise any box checked..k?

I don't get your bet/call the flop. 95% of the time, if not more, villian raises your bet. If you are willing to put in two bets c/r is better IMO. C/R represents a lot more strength. People are less willing to raise a c/r then they are a bet. You can learn more. If he 3-bets you're likely behind, if he calls then his hand may not be strong, if he calls and raises the turn you could be in trouble. That was my reasoning.

I don't know if my line is best, but I am rather certain it is better than bet/calling, leading a blank? Your logic is flawed.

Your plan on the turn. What do you do if he raises? fold with that many outs? If you lead the turn, why are you c/c river instead of bet/folding?

I called the turn because, in real time, I thought I had about 6-8 outs which made calling correct.

I wish I had called the river..I think it's about even EV. But by folding I generated a good post [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

[SeaEagle]

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I wish I had called the river..I think it's about even EV.

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Really? What range of hands do you give him where you're ahead of 10% of that range?

[DrewOnTilt]

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The river is a harder decision, if you've decided that this player is a maniac capable of bluffing at you with a lower PP, bottom pair, or a busted straight draw then you must call. Although I would likely fold that river since there isn't a very large hand range that you're beating at that point, and villian has shown nothing but strength.

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The problem that I have with this line is that it's not consistent. It makes no sense to me to call the turn then fold this river.

If we are good on the flop with middle pair then we are likely good on the river. This is where postflop reads are crucial. The Ace is not the nicest of cards but it doesn't complete any draws. Unless Villain has AK or A9 or has been firing away with some other Ace-rag, then this river card might as well be the 14 of Purple Horseshoes.

[SackUp]

c/r the flop helps define the other players hand and puts the hero in control of the hand. Further we get mone in the pot when we are ahead, but get out cheaper if behind. What is this guy 3 betting that we are ahead of on the flop? His stats really are not that aggressive.

I think folding the turn is pretty easy. Any outs you have a tainted and I would be shocked if you are ever ahead here.

[TheHammer24]

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c/r the flop helps define the other players hand and puts the hero in control of the hand. Further we get mone in the pot when we are ahead, but get out cheaper if behind. What is this guy 3 betting that we are ahead of on the flop? His stats really are not that aggressive.

I think folding the turn is pretty easy. Any outs you have a tainted and I would be shocked if you are ever ahead here.

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I agree with the c/r logic, but I went against it by calling the turn. I was getting 7.75:1 and I had up to 9 outs. Probably more like 5 though. I thought I had the odds to call even though I figured to be behind. Thats why I check folded the river UI. I don't know why I said I thought it was neutral EV to call the river a few posts agao. I'm pretty sure I'm behind everything but a pure bluff at this point. I guess I just wish I had kept my santity and called.

[ReadyEddie]

I dont think this flop c/r does anything at all. After discounting i give us about 7 outs. Not to mention the possibility that we are ahead. I'm gonna check call this and let him keep bluffing. If the turn comes A ill check/fold then. If it comes blank ill call and show this down. if we're not beat i dont mind him checking behind as only the A can hurt us.