*Official* Boat or Better Thread - Page 4

#1 12-01-2005, 08:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't find the hand, but at Full Tilt 1/2, I limped on the button with 33 after 2 EP limpers. The BB raised, and all 3 called. My 100+ hand read was that I had 3 LAGs who would play any 2 suited or better.

Flop came A 3 3. BB bet, EP1 called, EP2 raised . . .

I thought for almost the max time trying to decide if I should raise or donk cold call 2. The reasoning that won out was to cc and pray for the BB to re-raise. He had demonstrated a tendency to stay in the lead if he liked his hand, regardless of position. He did, and got 3 more calls.

Turn was Ks, putting 4 to the flush on the board. Same exact betting - I cold called 2 and was rewarded with a BB re-raise.

Riv completed the flush (BOO-Yeah!) BB bet, 1 call, EP2 raises (?!?) and now I raise. After a serious pause, BB capped, EP1 folded (finally? guess he couldn't beat a flush) and EP2 called, I called.

Results: Quad 3s>>>>>>>>Ks full of 3s>>>>>>>A high flush

The lesson was clear to me - think far more about your opponent's likely miopic view of their cards far more than your own. I actually think it is easier to focus on their likely holdings when yours is a no brainer. It also helps when donks also make their hands without noticing that you are along for the ride.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post.

jaxUp · #2 12-03-2005, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't find the hand, but at Full Tilt 1/2, I limped on the button with 33 after 2 EP limpers. The BB raised, and all 3 called. My 100+ hand read was that I had 3 LAGs who would play any 2 suited or better.

Flop came A 3 3. BB bet, EP1 called, EP2 raised . . .

I thought for almost the max time trying to decide if I should raise or donk cold call 2. The reasoning that won out was to cc and pray for the BB to re-raise. He had demonstrated a tendency to stay in the lead if he liked his hand, regardless of position. He did, and got 3 more calls.

Turn was Ks, putting 4 to the flush on the board. Same exact betting - I cold called 2 and was rewarded with a BB re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you should have put a cap in right here. You are for sure getting 3 more BB + probably more on the next street.

#3 12-01-2005, 10:03 PM

In situations where you flop a big hand (ie boat/flush/straight) How should it be played, generally I will slowplay against few opponents, in this situation I hit a big hand but I didn't want to scare anyone away how did I play it?

no reads

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

I din't bet or c/r here as I thought I would scare everyone away, also I wanted to c/r the turn (I would of bet/c-r if there were more opponents)

Turn: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, Hero ?

I'm worried I've been slowplayed by a flush, do I call or raise? (then again wouldn't someone with a flush re-raise the turn?)

jaxUp · #4 12-03-2005, 03:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In situations where you flop a big hand (ie boat/flush/straight) How should it be played, generally I will slowplay against few opponents, in this situation I hit a big hand but I didn't want to scare anyone away how did I play it?

no reads

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

I din't bet or c/r here as I thought I would scare everyone away, also I wanted to c/r the turn (I would of bet/c-r if there were more opponents)

Turn: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, Hero ?

I'm worried I've been slowplayed by a flush, do I call or raise? (then again wouldn't someone with a flush re-raise the turn?)

[/ QUOTE ]

You should come out betting on this flop. As the PFR, people are assuming that you have strength. As a result, they will usually check this through. However, most players with a Q or diamond will call here.The problem with going for a turn c/r is that often he will check with a drawing hand. I think I would have c/r'ed the flop and led the turn. I just call this river raise.

benkath1 · #5 12-02-2005, 11:00 AM

OK, here's one. I'm playing at Stars and the tables are loosey goosey, as you'll soon see.

I'm in BB with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

1 limp, 2 limp, 3 limp raise , 3 bet from hijack , folded to me.

Now the way utg and utg+1 and utg+2 have been playing, I was about 95% sure, if I called, they were calling. I was just as certain that if the action was capped, they were coming along too.

So I called the 2 sb and lo and behold, so did the limpers. MP2 (original raiser) caps, and hijack calls with the rest of us.

All 6 of us see a flop with 24.5 sb in it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Yummy!! But this is where I'm a little lost.

So being oop holding a monster, I check, intending to CR if it's heads up.

4 checks to the original raiser and he bets, hijack raises so I smooth call the 2 bets, hoping for some overcalls and possibly a 3 bet from MP2. I get one overcall, and MP2 makes it 3 , hijack calls, and I go ahead and cap it , all 3 of them call. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Turn anyone? How about a brick for 20.25 BB?

4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to make it:
6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet, UTG+1 calls all in, MP2 calls,

river is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, MP2 calls and hates me.

I win 24bb pot with boat,
utg+1 has 77 for 2 pair,
and MP2 has AA, another 2 pair

Was my preflop call correct, knowing that this could be a huge multiway pot? I will know on the flop if I'm gonna continue.

tiltaholic · #6 12-02-2005, 11:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, here's one. I'm playing at Stars and the tables are loosey goosey, as you'll soon see.

I'm in BB with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

1 limp, 2 limp, 3 limp raise , 3 bet from hijack , folded to me.

Now the way utg and utg+1 and utg+2 have been playing, I was about 95% sure, if I called, they were calling. I was just as certain that if the action was capped, they were coming along too.

So I called the 2 sb and lo and behold, so did the limpers. MP2 (original raiser) caps, and hijack calls with the rest of us.

All 6 of us see a flop with 24.5 sb in it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Yummy!! But this is where I'm a little lost.

So being oop holding a monster, I check, intending to CR if it's heads up.

4 checks to the original raiser and he bets, hijack raises so I smooth call the 2 bets, hoping for some overcalls and possibly a 3 bet from MP2. I get one overcall, and MP2 makes it 3 , hijack calls, and I go ahead and cap it , all 3 of them call. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Turn anyone? How about a brick for 20.25 BB?

4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to make it:
6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet, UTG+1 calls all in, MP2 calls,

river is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, MP2 calls and hates me.

I win 24bb pot with boat,
utg+1 has 77 for 2 pair,
and MP2 has AA, another 2 pair

Was my preflop call correct, knowing that this could be a huge multiway pot? I will know on the flop if I'm gonna continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the pf call is good.

i think i'd call the 3-bet on the flop and C/R the turn since you know UTG+1 is throwing in his last bet and MP will call or raise...

Eeegah · #7 12-02-2005, 02:28 PM

I love you, passive players.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB calls, CO calls.

River: (5 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Results in white below: 
CO has Ah 7h (flush, ace high).
Hero has 3d 3h (full house, threes full of nines).
Outcome: Hero wins 13 BB.

jaxUp · #8 12-03-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I love you, passive players.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB calls, CO calls.

River: (5 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Results in white below: 
CO has Ah 7h (flush, ace high).
Hero has 3d 3h (full house, threes full of nines).
Outcome: Hero wins 13 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I fold pf. postflop was standard.

#9 12-02-2005, 03:12 PM

grunch...this is for the 66 in BB flopped boat

Well you thought you had ridiculous implied odds to make your hand. You got a BB discount on the flop, so you were paying 3 BB to get into a pot with 21.5 sb, thats your 7:1 right there that you need to see the flop! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] And if you think about implied odds, you were completely right about getting a lot of action--your implied odds ended up being 40.5:3 (not counting the money you put into the pot later, which you dont lose if you miss the flop.)

So the EV of this play is pretty high IMO without actually running the calculation.

Ah what the hell, why not:
You lose (7/8) * 3SB when you miss.
You win (1/8) * 21.5SB when you flop it, assuming the hand ends there. You can expect at least 6-8 more BB into the pot I would think since donks will be overplaying overpairs. Lets go with 7 more BB you can expect to win on later streets, which is still probably conservative as we have seen from the action in this hand.

EV = -(7/8)*1.5BB + (1/8)17.75BB = -1.31BB + 2.22BB
EV = +0.91BB (at least)

Looks like a good play to me.

Somebody let me know if I did that right.

Steve

J. Stew · #10 12-02-2005, 07:16 PM

Gettin' dirty at a tight-arse table . . .

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button folds, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, CO calls, UTG+2 folds.

River: (11.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

mmmmmmmmmm . . .