Hand to Talk About

[Dynasty]

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The turn A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (overcard) isn't good for you. When it's bet ($40) and called to you, I'd have just called. What does your raise accomplish?

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There is no reason to think that the Button, who is now Mason's only opponent in the sidepot, has Mason beat. All the Buton has done is call, call, and call again. Mason's flopped top pair is good against an opponent who is doing nothing but calling. So, Mason's raise accomplishes the most basic goal- it wins money.

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Maybe you fold JJ.

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Bad hand reading. JJ would have raised pre-flop and 3-bet the flop. Nobody has JJ>

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Yes, I'd have expected the button to raise if he held an ace, but am I sure enough to risk a 3-bet? Nope.

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This is just scared poker.

And, you can't say "the Button will call with a flush draw so why raise?". You raise because he has a possible flush draw and take his money while he's drawing.

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What's more, if the button 3-bets, you're faced with a very tough decision and may have to fold.

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The decision is easy. You would call a 3-bet on the turn in such a big pot.

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Also, your turn raise probably doesn't buy a free showdown

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Mason shouldn't want a free showdown. His opponent would like one. But, Mason would be unwise to give him one.

[tipperdog]

Thanks for the thoughtful and thorough reply (sincerely). You're clearly correct. With the button drawing, MM should charge him to the max. If the button hits on the river, so be it.

[elysium]

hi mason
the thing that really stands out about this hand, is the minimal amount of ev attained by playing the hand perfectly. of course, whenever that's the case, there is a minimal amount of certainty as to what constitutes perfect play.

the hand also lacks depth.

alright, anyway....you make what may look like to many as a semi-bluff check-raise on the turn. it's not. you're trying to fold out the better kicker using the A scare card.

mason, you don't have stellar conditions making the play correct. it's correct turn because of the unique dynamics arising when the CO goes all-in, and the button then indicates that he has a problem with his hand. it looks like QJh or KT. JT is also possible, and so is KQh. if he has QT or KT, he might fold. when he calls, he's drawing. he then busts.

the turn play to fold him out is fine. the fact that it didn't have any possibility of folding everyone out didn't in itself disqualify it as a semi-bluffing hand. it had more to do with the lack of strength in your hand combined with the low probability of folding out the button. even if you could have folded out the CO, i'm positive that had the CO not been all-in, you never would have check-raised, even if the CO checked, and the button betout. you saw an unusual opportunity unique to this very limited scenario; the effect of the all-in being called by the button.

the river; perfect. you hit trips. check-call the button. you are enough of a favorite here to check-raise. so why check-call? mason, i think that the button is very unlikey to raise, and that he will call with enough hands to give your bet value. i just think that this opponent will make what he thinks is a value bet, bluff of his busted, or fold here often enough to make the river check-call the slightly better play. i admit it mason. i hear you. i'm here. i see the situation. agreed. unquestionably, as tallied, the voters approve a betout on the river by a landslide. yet by a razor thin margin, i cast my longshot check-call vote.

whenever a hand evolves such as this one, finding me trailing and just hanging in there solely on the opportunities afforded by the unique complexion of the hand, unless i see a situation arise that gives my strong action correct pot odds to go ahead and give it a try because it is likely the only way i can win, in these just hanging in there type hands that have me backed against the wall firing out, i then startlingly go back against the ropes once the action that i was forced to take has accomplished what was intended. now i know that if i check the river here, this opponent isn't a favorite to bet. but there is something else that consider.

FWIW, this opponent is a favorite to assist me in future hands, if he calls and moves predictably. if i check, and he checks it down, showing down his weak A, i still come out ahead because not only will his actions have confirmed for me that he is in fact an opponent who will assist in tough spots in later hands, but also, when he sees the strength of my hand, he relizes that he does well to remain a reliable assistant, rather than an untimely folder or three-bettor. the fact that he didn't 3-bet the turn is non-problematic for your showdown because you likely have a hand that he would have called a 3-bet with, and he never feels that strong action would have gotten you out. of course, if you were semi-bluffing a double gut, or betout on the turn to fold, relying on an unimproved with inside, and rivered well, now you should bet, even after a roller coaster, because now you don't mind his folding so much. showing down and letting him see an inside draw or overs only that he failed to raise, may tend to irritate him toward a more aggressive posture, and ripple the left side passive texture of the immediate field protecting you on, well, on your left side. now if right gets angry, left intercepts, and so on. but a betting ripple....na, na. you don't want one of those.

o.k., o.k, i'm wrong. you should bet. the check-call could be costly. i am serious though about the liklihood of my check-calling, for the very reasons listed above. often mason, there's a lot of seriousness in humor. hey, i get along with my left. righty had it o'er us 300 yea's.

[tolbiny]

Hi ely,
I dont think that mason's check raise on the turn was a semi bluff. I believe that he put the button on a draw and that it was a value raise. He is building a side pot against the button.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

Does that include catching the ten on the river?

Best wishes,
Mason

[Punker]

I think the most interesting part of the hand is knowing on the flop that the person behind you is going all in, and how to use this knowledge to put the most pressure possible on the button. If this player had had $60 left after raising the flop, I would prefer reraising the flop, giving him the chance to make it two more full bets to the button. As his stack stood, I like the turn checkraise as it gives you the best chance to see if the button is on the ace high flush draw; when he doesn't raise the turn, it appears he is on spades, but without an ace, and you can max the pressure on him by checkraising.

[elysium]

hi tolb
actually, mason is attempting to fold out. value bets and raises, or value check-raises for that matter, will always have the bettor seeking a call. the river bet is an example of a value bet. in hold em, you must have a very good understanding about field and game conditions, and the type of action required and why, over and above the manual betting action, before you can understand why a player is making the type bet that you are observing. this prevents what is known in the hold em community as jumping to conclusions and erring. i'm sure you find it interesting that mason's check-raise isn't a value check-raise, even when mason's opponent calls with a weaker hand of any two. now, if mason's anticipation and desire for the call is approx. a 1 3/4 to 1 favored predominate emotion over the fear of fold or reraise, and mason's mood will remain in this above marginally good range WHEN CALLED, then it is a value check-raise. against a bluffer or tricky aggressive who is likely to 3-bet, mason would need to be on uncut grade 1 opium to be an emotional favorite in this spot with that hand, tolb. without very good cards, he needs very good chit.

no. mason doesn't know which of his opponents has the draw, or whether his second pair T with Q kicker is good. when the A comes flying out and mason check-raises, he is not check-raising that A for value. mason is using it as a scare card. remember, before betting out, mason's opponent also did a risk assessment of a possible mood swing. the line on him is something like 1 2/5 to 1. mason realizes that his opponent didn't do the math, and might be offering an emotional overlay on the mood scale. when the scare card hits, mason's getting 2 1/2 to 1 on a 50/50 fear factor fold. unfortunately, mason's opponent is a phen phen/ apathy station, and mason's check-raise fails to elevate his opponent's fright factor into the folding range. the apathy hurts us painfully on the turn, but on the river it provides us with much joy, look! the line on our expectation and desire for a call of our river bet is laying 2 to 1! that'll keep us well within the happy range, and friendly too. maybe making us an odds on favorite in a later hand, when we hit powerfully and go for a highly successful friendship check-raise.

who would have ever thought that a little apathy could cause so much joy? mason's getting 2 to 1 that his bet will not cause him to have a mood swing on the river. and that, by any definition tolb, is a true value bet.

[cero_z]

Hi Mason,
Well played IMO, but also very straightforward. I doubt that the river card gave you a winner, but it's nice to have a shot at it after recouping a few dollars from the side pot. I'm guessing you would've checked and folded, had the raiser not been all in on the turn. And after reviewing the hand, the raiser might have JTs, depending on what he thinks of your open-raise in that spot.

[mike l.]

"I doubt that the river card gave you a winner,"

he made trip tens on the river. why on earth wouldnt we expect that to be the winner??

[soda]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I thought I'd share anyway.

QTo in late middle position. If you want to mix up your play or the game is pretty good for raising here (too tight), then a raise would be OK, but otherwise I would suggest folding this in a full ring game.

The flop, bet and just call the raise sounds about right, because the guy is short. I would plan on a turn C/R if the button doesn't raise.

The turn, you could have laid 5:1 odds on the all-in player betting his $40. So, he does and the button just calls. I think you need to raise every time here. Your hand is best nearly always.

The river, you have a monster, but you are pretty close to positive that the button is on a draw. I know it stinks, but I think you need to check this river and hope he's dumb enough to take a stab.

Those are my thoughts on this hand, it certainly offers many paths to success.

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

soda