Should i have taken a different line of play?

[nykenny]

bernie, u played this hand badly. bet the flop. checking has no purpose. in a pot this large, u want to thin field, u want to show down with a good hand, u want to find out how strong the competition is early. by checking the flop, u accomplish nothing, and u now just add noises to the information flow (channel), people can get tricky and knock you out of the best hand on the turn, people can now maximize on you if they have you crushed, people can now improve at no charge.

in the end, you might have (most likely would have) lost this pot anyway, but u will at least be able to say to yourself, "i'd like to replay this situation a thousand times more exactly the same way before the river." and smile sourly inside. heck, maybe you would even write down a mental note on how bad they played.

but don't listen to me, i have been running bad. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

best wishes,

Kenny

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
hey all lose money on the turn for each additional bet they put in. Especially the gutshot going for his 3 outer. He made a mistake in calling the initial bet on the turn according to FTOP. That being a hindsight view, of course. His preflop cap i thought he may be a bit stronger.


[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree with this line of thinking. you are making a case to slow play anything (that is the best hand) in a big pot big field. following your theory, you would justify slow playing whenever you have top pair, just because their calling "double-bet" on the turn will make their mistake more wrong...

after capping before the flop in a large multiway pot, ANY good hand, sometimes even not so good hands (if with sufficient clean outs) should bet. checking is wrong. the only case for checking is when an over card is not likely to hurt you, and the turn bet is likely to come from late position before you.

Also, i forgot to mention the preflop 3betting with AQo is kinda bad too... unless of course you don't do this all the time and have specific reasons or goals to achieve with this play in this hand.

humble losing player,

Kenny

[nykenny]

i agree with china willy.

bet the flop.

imagine this, you see EVERYONE's hole cards. you have the best hand, noone has Q, no one has any good pair, but collectively, they have some outs, all checked to you, would you bet? i would.

is this hard?

maybe i am wrong, that would explain why i have been losing lately - because I am a bad player, not because I have been running bad. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Kenny

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
I would most likely get all 3 callers with a flop bet here.


[/ QUOTE ]

u would ALWAYS get 3 callers with a flop check here.

[DiamondDave]

I like the preflop 3-bet. I like the turn raise. I like the river fold. Betting the flop would have been OK. Then again, if you had bet the flop, it is less likely that you would have been bet into on the turn.

Besides, it's not like checking the flop cost you the pot in this case. The guy who ended up with the flush flopped a pair and had an ace in his hand, so (from the way things sound) he would have seen the turn even if you had bet the flop. And, since the turn was a heart, he would have seen the river as well.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, i forgot to mention the preflop 3betting with AQo is kinda bad too... unless of course you don't do this all the time and have specific reasons or goals to achieve with this play in this hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Given my initial read, this was an easy 3 bet preflop. I mentioned all that in my initial post.

[ QUOTE ]
the only case for checking is when an over card is not likely to hurt you,

[/ QUOTE ]

There's only 1 overcard i dont want to see.

[ QUOTE ]
and the turn bet is likely to come from late position before you.


[/ QUOTE ]

I mentioned i didnt like UTG being the one to bet out. Sometimes you dont get what you wish for and have to play it anyways.

[ QUOTE ]
you are making a case to slow play anything (that is the best hand) in a big pot big field. following your theory, you would justify slow playing whenever you have top pair, just because their calling "double-bet" on the turn will make their mistake more wrong...


[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes it is the right way to go about a hand. A Flop bet really doesnt do much with the pot that large. Though i do think a flop bet does have some valid points, i chose a different route. You cant see ahead and see an absolute blank hitting on the turn and then check the flop. Sometimes they will catch a draw and get there. It happens.

b

[James282]

You raise the turn because you get 2x as much money.
-James

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
His opponents probably don't have odds to draw to anything, so 1 small bet is enough of a price to make them make a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize how big this pot is? 16sbs. Even a 3 outer has easily odds to call a single bet here. KJ, for instance. Adding his runner outs gives him an even easier call. Even a 2 outer given the implied odds if he hits the turn.

What hands do you think theyll fold based on their preflop play for a single flop bet? Which also gives them better odds for a turn bet that, if they all call, will give them 10-1 on the first bet out?

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine the consequences of the flop check if the guy with A7s had A6s instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes it will happen, sometimes it wont. It's the nature of checking the flop.

A flop bet has merit, sure. But so does waiting to the turn. Which is a more punishing bet/raise than the flop in this case given the pot size.

Sometimes you have to take a risk and check that flop. Not everytime, and not routinely. But in playing it over 1000 times, i think i make more money longrun, given my read of the situation before i see their hands, than if i bet this flop.

b

[bernie]

The UTG was not betting the turn without anything here. As i stated, when faced with being played back at, he slowed down. He bet because the Th hit him. If it had been a Tc, he'd have checked.

I was expecting the bet to come from UTG1 or MP. UTG kind of suprised me that he bet out. Which is why i said at best, he has a pair of Ts.

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 might have been screwing around/capping with a hand like JTs,

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont see him capping with this hand. I was very suprised, as were the players out of the hand, when he turned over AJo. Yes, he would raise to isolate with worse, but not cap. His cap was a factor in me waiting to the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
UTG might have a worse Q and checkraise. He calls PF and checks to the capper, but now that the capper checked and you bet, he thinks his hand is good. Facing two cold, the others might fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on my read of him, he was not going for the c/r. He didnt have a Q. He had a very cautious look on his face when he checked. Trust me on this. UTG1 wouldve bet out with an overpair.

I dont see anyone folding for a flop bet, and there was no indication of them c/r'ing. I would likely have been checked to on the turn, and called in 3 places again.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
imagine this, you see EVERYONE's hole cards. you have the best hand, noone has Q, no one has any good pair, but collectively, they have some outs, all checked to you, would you bet? i would.

is this hard?


[/ QUOTE ]

It's unreasonable. It's easy if you use hindsight. But during a hand, you're not privy to that info, so you have to go with your reads. Im not putting UTG on AJo after capping preflop. I noted that point many times. His initial raise could be weak, but his cap is a different story. I know UTG is weak but he's also nervous about 2 aggressives behind him on this hand. MP probably has 2 big cards. What is your read of him since he called 2 on the turn?

When it got checked, and the UTG1 just called the initial turn bet, i put him on AK most likely.

b