Middle East Terrorists Kill 20. Bush: oh well

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
I tell them I will knock their house down, thus putting their family out on the street and incurring a whole lot of expense for a family that likely doesn't have much money, if they choose to murder an Israeli.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be honest with you, if somebody knocked on my door and told me that, I would kick the sh*t out of them. I wouldn't murder them, but they would regret having made such a threat.

[Gamblor]

Tell me, why should we pay any attention to your criticisms of Arab and Muslim human rights violations when you airily dismiss all such criticisms of Israel?

I don't airily dismiss them - I claim that those criticisms are based on misleading information on the part of Palestinian government and a misunderstanding of the situation the IDF faces - that is, the IDF is in combat with a belligerent foe, one that fights readily, as PA-TV proves.

Arab belligerence to Jewish sovereignty in the Middle East began long before Israel existed.

That is, Arab violations of human rights attack those who are not belligerent - i.e. the Jews of the Middle East in the early 20th century, the Kurds of Iraq, because it is the Arab political view that Arabs have the exclusive right to self-determination in the Middle East.

Is it shocking, really, that any national group that demands self-determination in the Middle East is currently (or in the recent past) at war with the Arabs?

Persian Iranians vs. Iraqi Arabs
Kurds vs. Iraqi Arabs
Jews vs. a melange of Arab states.
...And the quagmire in Sudan I posted a couple days ago.

[nicky g]

"I tell them I will knock their house down, thus putting their family out on the street and incurring a whole lot of expense for a family that likely doesn't have much money, if they choose to murder an Israeli.

Do you believe that Palestinian will go ahead and murder an Israeli?"

That is not and has never been the case. Demolishing suicide bombers homes poses that question to the suicide bomber, who will be dead in any case and obviously has a warped value system that is not going to be easily put off by the thought of his family's home being demolished (he's already willing to kill himslef). The family theselves have no say in the matter, and the demolitions are the most blatant expaple of illegal collective punishment one could think of.

In the case of Gaza, the people in those homes aren;t being offered that choice either. Their homes are being demolished because some near by may or may not have tinnels, coming beneath them, because militants may or may not occupy the house at some point, because the IDF wants to make its illegitimate control of the Gaza Egypt border an easier tassk, and mostly, because they are being punished for the deaths of 13 IDF soldiers last week. The people in those bouses aren't being offered a choice; their houses are being demolished regardless.

[Gamblor]

Then you're the same as they are.

[nicky g]

Hear hear.

[Gamblor]

If you violently oppress people, they will violently fight you. Whether it takes a legitimate (fighting Israeli incursions) or illegitimate (attacking civilian targets) form, they will resist. And they are right to do so.

I have shown repeatedly that the "oppression" is the result of continued terrorist assault that began long before the 1967 war.

You don't get it. The terrorists win either way, and that's why Arafat started the campaign so long ago.

If they kill Israelis and Israel doesn't react, they force Israel to concede its right to self defence.

If Israel reacts, they send the IDF in to root out terrorists/invading soldiers (67), the world calls it "occupation" and "oppression" and the terrorists have recruiting power.

That's why terrorism works, and why it has been a staple of Palestinian nationalism since before 1948.

Which Came First, Terrorism or Occupation?

Major Terror Attacks Against Israeli Embassies and Representatives Abroad

[nicky g]

"I don't airily dismiss them - I claim that those criticisms are based on misleading information on the part of Palestinian government and a misunderstanding of the situation the IDF faces - that is, the IDF is in combat with a belligerent foe, one that fights readily, as PA-TV proves."

If such organisationa are too stupid to see past the propaganda coming from both sides in Israel, why should we trust their judgement in Darfur, or anywhere else? After all don't you know that the Darfur rebels have been engaged in anti-Arab proaganda for decades? Furthermore, what do human rights organisations (or Israeli editorial writers) know about putitng down tribal rebellions in Sudan? blah blah blah

If you are going to accept these organisation;s judgements on what's being done by the countries you don't like, you;re going to have to accept them on the country you do. At least if you intend anyone to take you remotely seriously.

[nicky g]

Between 1967 and first intifada there was virtually no terrorism emanating from within the territories agains targets inside Israel. Yet the occupation went on for 20 years. In the year prior to the invasion of Lebanon, one Israeli had been killed by terrorism emanating from Lebanon. But Israel launched a massively bloody invasion nonetheless.
As for violence pre-1948, it happend on both sides (and you defend it coming from one), and if you think any people in the entire world would not resist a wave of immigrants turning up and deciding to build a new state with them as the majority there, you;re crazy.

[Gamblor]

Demolishing suicide bombers homes poses that question to the suicide bomber, who will be dead in any case and obviously has a warped value system that is not going to be easily put off by the thought of his family's home being demolished (he's already willing to kill himslef).

House demolitions are not punishment, they are deterrent, as I just explained. Only results-oriented thinking could believe otherwise.

I thought suicide bombers were "resisting occupation"! If they're resisting occupation then they're rational and not murderous savages. And if they're rational then knowing that their family will be homeless likely will stop them.

What you don't get is that most suicide bombers are social deviants and misfits, such as 14 year old Hussein Abdo who was severely "challenged" and who was convinced the only way he'll ever have sex is to go to heaven, or the Erez crossing bomber who had commited adultery and the bombing was accepted as the only honourable way to kill her.

This is what Palestinians do with those that don't conform to societal norms.

[elwoodblues]

When your deterrent tends to enrage rather than deter, it might be time to rethink how it is working.