more "minor stuff"

[MMMMMM]

Sad and paradoxical that my perspective stems from empathizing with the victims more than you do, yet you think it is my perspective that is the more cavalier.

If you really cared about the victims as much as you appear to, you would have identified with them more BEFORE the war, and BEFORE this recent incident. If this incident upset you, Saddam's abuses should have upset you 1,000 times more--as they did me.

[Utah]

Of course they will be punished! They were caught...

So, you agree then that the US military holds itself up to the highest standard of conduct and punishes those that abuse its powers. Good. Now we can move on.

he United States has refused all proposals to ensure even a modicum of neutral and independent jurisdiction

Great. Awesome! Why would we want to do something as terribly retarded as that? Do you think there is such a thing as a non-political moral world voice? I know you are crazy, but your not that crazy. At least I dont think you are.

OK so now I get it. It is the United States versus the world

Sure, why not. Being a leader often means going it alone.

If you believe that the United States is doing the right thing and that the United States is different from all other countries, then it logically follows that all the other countries should try to emulate the United States in all respects, in order to rise to the level of the United States. Which means that every country in the world should also refuse to recognize world courts, the U.N. and international treaties!..

OMG - beautiful. You are finally starting to understand.

[MMMMMM]

If every country in the world used international treaties, and forgot about the UN and World Court, it would indeed be a better world.

[Tuco]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
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Tuco:It is not just a few assh#%@# to blame here. A great number of soldiers in Iraq don't have any knowledge of the Geneva Convention or what it GUARANTEES prisoners held by governments that signed the document.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



M:How do you know this?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, here is a link that talks about the large number of reservists.

http://news.ibn.net/newsgen.asp?url=calumoew

The untrained part comes from a 60 minutes story I watched on Sunday. Don't have the link but I think I saw it somewhere here in another thread.

[ QUOTE ]
What I think is happening here, in our discussion, is that a reflection of how we tend to think about such things is starting to emerge. You seem primarily focused on the transgressors--in this case the handful of US soldiers--while I seem preoccupied with the suffering of victims, and how to relieve it. I have noticed a similar difference in perspective when discussing things with Andy Fox

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't be upset with the transgressors if I wasn't also preoccupied with the victims would I? I thought my concerns for the victims was implied. I was disgusted for years what Saddam did to his people. I empathize greatly with their plight. I'm just horribly saddened by the abuse the get from their so-called liberators. Sure it's not *as* bad, as you are so keen to point out, but the fact that it is perpetrated by a country that is supposed to be saving them from such abuses is tragic.

I expect, sadly, awful behaviour from regimes like Saddams. I don't expect it from our government or yours. It COMPLETELY undermines the entire reason the "coalition" is in Iraq.

Tuco.

[MMMMMM]

Thanks for the link.

[ QUOTE ]

I expect, sadly, awful behaviour from regimes like Saddams. I don't expect it from our government or yours. It COMPLETELY undermines the entire reason the "coalition" is in Iraq.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I don't think you can have over 100,000 people engaged in some project without a few doing some pretty nasty or bad stuff. Humans just aren't that uniformly good, I'm afraid.

As for undermining the reasons we are in Iraq--it does somewhat--but "completely"??? I just don't see that.

[ACPlayer]

First, I hope the military is not as sanguine as you are that there are no systemic problem areas with abuse in Iraq. Otherwise we will be reading about this again in some other form in a few weeks/months.

[ QUOTE ]
But so far, none of the interrogators at Abu Ghraib are facing criminal charges. In fact, a number of them are civilians, and military law doesn’t apply to them.

One of the civilian interrogators at Abu Ghraib was questioned by the Army, and he told investigators he had "broken several tables during interrogations, unintentionally," while trying to "fear up" prisoners. He denied hurting anyone.



[/ QUOTE ]
Second, i some of the interrogations may have been outsourced to private contractors who may not be held to the same standard of conduct (see a previous thread on this as well). If so then this is a systemic problem. US soldiers are at least supposed to be trained in things like the Geneva convention (even if there appears to be less than adequate supervision).

[ QUOTE ]
One of the soldiers facing court martial is Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick.

Frederick is charged with maltreatment for allegedly participating in and setting up a photo, and for posing in a photograph by sitting on top of a detainee. He is charged with an indecent act for observing one scene. He is also charged with assault for allegedly striking detainees – and ordering detainees to strike each other.

60 Minutes II talked with him by phone from Baghdad, where he is awaiting court martial.

Frederick told us he will plead not guilty, claiming the way the Army was running the prison led to the abuse of prisoners.

“We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations,” says Frederick. “And it just wasn't happening."



[/ QUOTE ]
Third, it appears that one of the Sgt's involved told Dan Rather that he tried to get direction from his superiors on what to do with the prisoners and that some of this may have been done with their implicit approval.


So, perhaps there are systemic problems and failures of management. Something this administration appears to be getting very good!
Quotes from: CBS News story

[Tuco]

[ QUOTE ]
As for undermining the reasons we are in Iraq--it does somewhat--but "completely"??? I just don't see that.



[/ QUOTE ]

Poor choice of words on my part.

Tuco.

[Cyrus]

"If you really cared about the victims as much as you appear to, you would have identified with them more BEFORE the war, and BEFORE this recent incident. If this incident upset you, Saddam's abuses should have upset you 1,000 times more--as they did me."

Allow me to doubt that you were ever upset about Saddam before Bush fixated on his regime.

It was the liberals who were protesting against America's support of Saddam from the 80s. That far back, baby. The likes of you at the time were all in favor of Saddam Hussein, because as the saying goes, "He is a so.o.b but he is our s.o.b." That was the official mantra then.

You dare tell me I was not "upset with Saddam's crimes" and that you were. Hah. Can you spell Hulibbartawn ?

[Cyrus]

"You agree then that the US military holds itself up to the highest standard of conduct and punishes those that abuse its powers. Good."

Nope. I wrote that the soldiers will be punished because they were caught. If they were not caught, nothing would have happened more than a reprimand. That's what the woman chief of the prison was supposed to get before all hell broke loose. And that's the official Army report saying that, not me. (Are you trying to be funny or did you truly not get it?)

"Do you think there is such a thing as a non-political moral world voice?"

You are making a correct but irrelevant point. (You must be working for IBM.) What I wrote is that the U.S. created the World Court and then ..refused to recognize its jurisdiction. As far as leadership goes, the United States sucks.

[ACPlayer]

Completely may be nearer the truth than somewhat.

We are now the occupiers and not the liberators. We will do what is necessary to stay in Iraq today and tomorrow and keep a gun pointed at the Iraqi's (in the future in the form of bases of Marines on Iraqi soil, dare a future Iraqi govt ask us to leave, if the neo-cons have their way we will storm out of the bases and it is back to war). The Iraqi's still need to be liberated.

We are now the abusers even if it is just by a few in the prisons and more by those who destroy the houses, businesses, and lives by bombing those we are allegedly protecting.

Of course if we kill all the Iraqi's those left will truly be liberated!

Wake up and smell the scent, there is a bad odor here.