Do You Call With QQ Here?

[ohkanada]

For most tourney players, the only way you are just calling for 1/3 of your stack is AA and maybe KK. You are hoping the BB finds a hand and either calls or goes all-in.

So when you are in the BB, you do need a big hand to make that re-raise all-in. Of course if the BB really feels SB is weak then maybe the BB can lower his hands but not by much.

Ken Poklitar

[SossMan]

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For most tourney players, the only way you are just calling for 1/3 of your stack is AA and maybe KK. You are hoping the BB finds a hand and either calls or goes all-in.

So when you are in the BB, you do need a big hand to make that re-raise all-in. Of course if the BB really feels SB is weak then maybe the BB can lower his hands but not by much.

Ken Poklitar



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Full table, I agree...but it's 4 handed. QQ is a monster.

[J.R.]

And these aren't most tourney players, but barry greenstein comming over the top of a retired car wash owner from ohio playing well above his comfort zone who has demonstarted a tendancy to play meekly preflop in a 4 handed game. I think Barry can have a lot of hands here.

[SossMan]

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And these aren't most tourney players, but barry greenstein comming over the top of a retired car wash owner from ohio playing well above his comfort zone who has demonstarted a tendancy to play meekly preflop in a 4 handed game. I think Barry can have a lot of hands here.

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Assuming you're talking about the JJ hand...it was 5 handed, but that doesn't make much difference.

It's hard to say, because we have such incomplete information. These guys have been playing together for 4 days. We get to see a small sample of the hands. For all we know, Mr. Meek Preflop retired car wash owner could have been raising every hand.
I don't know if you saw the episode a couple of weeks ago with Dewey Tomko and Paul Phillips heads up. Paul had Tomko outchipped by about 10:1 or so. The producers showed about 7 or 8 hands in a row where Dewey went all in preflop. They made it seem like he was pushing on every hand.
I read in Paul Phillips' poker journal that it wasn't the case at all. In fact he was pushing with less than half of his hands heads up.
All I'm saying is that there are many other factors that we don't know that would be pertinant to the arguments one way or the other.
I understand your point about reducing variance and the importance of winning pots late in a tourney. I think there definitely is an argument for raising JJ in that spot. I'm just saying that smooth calling can be a good changing gears play.
Given the call, and the subsequent raise by Barry...I like the call to see the flop before committing too many chips on JJ. Like you said...survival.

[SossMan]

Copy from Paul Phillips' livejournal:
"It can sure be frustrating reading the abysmal quality of the poker analysis on rgp. Nearly everyone that has commented on the tunica WPT episode seems to think the car wash guy played badly. No way.

Here's the question for all the late-inning quarterbacks who can see the cards: what if barry hadn't flopped a K on the JJ vs. AK hand, and car wash guy had moved in and shut him out of seeing the final two cards? That happens a lot more often than the K-high flop.

And since Barry moved in with AK in the BB in the big double-bust hand, you don't think there's any chance he'd do the same with JJ or TT or 99? How do you like QQ in that spot? What if Barry had just called with AK and he'd (again) shut him out on a low flop?

A lot of people seem to have gotten the idea that it's automatically right to push all-in and automatically wrong to call, no matter what the hands are. People make this error constantly even when the bet can only be called when losing, or when the call could beat a ton of hands. Look, the point is to WIN THE MONEY, not to get a medal for betting your chips off instead of calling them.

Anyone who thinks his play with the JJ and QQ are automatically bad has a lot of learning to do. I would suggest getting out the pencil and paper and calculating his tournament equity in the face of what hands he might be up against and how the succeeding action might go.

That said, I'd probably have moved in on the QQ hand... but it's close. On the JJ hand he did a great job of avoiding going broke and increasing the JJ vs. AK edge substantially by giving himself a chance to shut barry out on the flop. Everyone is a genius when their AK is hitting the flop.

And folding to the all-in from Barry AFTER calling with the QQ is beyond stupid."

I couldn't agree more.

[SossMan]

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Sure in hindsight it was an easy laydown

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Huh?
He wins over half the time vs. two opponents with his QQ. This call is ubber easy.

[sweetjazz]

If the BB is only going to reraise all-in with a big hand, then I'm going to call the short stack with all of my hands that I would otherwise raise all-in to shut out the BB. Now I get to fold many of BB's hands that beat me without risking all my chips.

And since Barry was going to end up all-in with AA or KK no matter what James did initially, I love his play. He got in with the best of it, and gave himself the best chance to win the tournament (which is no doubt what he wanted). His play also maximized EV given how much the first prize was and the fact that Randy Jensen still had a significant stack at that point.

[Stagemusic]

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Huh?
He wins over half the time vs. two opponents with his QQ. This call is ubber easy.

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I think you misunderstood. I meant that since we knew what the cards were and how it played out anyone could say he should have layed it down. Certainly not at the time. I happen to agree with you and I give him credit for playing a really fine tournament as an "amateur".

[SossMan]

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[ QUOTE ]
Huh?
He wins over half the time vs. two opponents with his QQ. This call is ubber easy.

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I think you misunderstood. I meant that since we knew what the cards were and how it played out anyone could say he should have layed it down. Certainly not at the time. I happen to agree with you and I give him credit for playing a really fine tournament as an "amateur".

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Even if (especially if) Barry and Chip showed him their cards (AKs and K5s) he has a call.
The only way he can fold is if the dealer shows him the flop preflop.

[Daliman]

Not sure if this has been broached yet, but, as it turned out, even though he went out in 3rd, there is acyually a possibility this was the best possible outcome for him, to wit;

He loses to chip anyways if he goes allin and BG folds, giving CR ~T500K, leaving him around T800K. Now, not that he got much chance to show it, CR rules, as we know, and I for one, would much rather see him gone from the table than with T500K. There is a half-decent chance he goes out in 4th if BG doesn't take down that hand, as he'd be 3rd in chips.

Then again, he could have folded, at which point in time, he's ~ T250K ( i believe) behind Randy Jensen, so he slotted 3rd anyways.

So, a case can be made, albeit not a great one, for that being a pretty good result of play for him, and one i agreed with regardless of seeing the hands or not. He did what he was supposed to do, and his $$$ overall was probably in there better with BG in the pot, especially given the fact that CR had a K.
I personally think Tippin played fantastic poker overall, the finall QQ decision was a bit of a wash i think either way all things considered, and that Randy Jensen is a joke. He made a few good plays, yes, but I consider those blind squirrel plays more than anything else. Some of his limps and raise calls are among the worst poker plays I've EVER seen a so-called "pro" make. His 9-3 offsuit limp/call raise, check flop, fold turn was exceedingly bad,( I mean, if you're calling to bluff DO IT MAN!), and he threw off an EASY 400K in stupid hands. His blind raises and one card raises, were equally bad, although the 1 carder does give the illusion of A or K, so not as bad. BU twhat do i know....