Party 15/30 preflop question -- another AJo one

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Umm, no I don't. Though I'd love it if my opponents all folded for one bet on the flop getting over 8-1 when I am betting roughly 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how do you play this hand with this flop with the pre-flop action the way it was? I am not confident in my decision process in these situations, which are not infrequent.

[/ QUOTE ]

The real answer isn't about just this hand. Its about all your hands. It's about a balanced approach to your game that leaves them always guessing. You check and call with top pair here sometimes so you can check and call with AJ. Sometimes you bet the flop. Sometimes you throw in the 4-bet preflop. Sometimes you quietly just call down with your AJ, something that can't be too awful since it seems getting 3-bet by QJs, A3s and other crap isn't that unusual. Sometimes you checkraise without a pair or draw. But one thing you most definitely do NOT do is check-fold every single flop you miss when you are headsup with a preflop 3-bettor. Once in a while, fine. But it better be against the right opponent if the game is really that aggressive. Believe me when the good players see that you do this, their range of 3-betting hands expands quickly and dramatically. And despite everyone talking about how wacky the Party 15 game is you better believe there are opponents observant enough that they see you folding like a cheap tent anytime they lean on you even a little.

[SinCityGuy]

Clarkmeister, I agree that it is too weak/tight to fold in general on these types of raises. But in this specific example, folding might have merit.

He raised UTG and was 3-bet before the flop. I know that there are a lot of idiots on Party, but against an unknown opponent you should probably assume that he's at least a mediocre player. The range of hands that I would put this guy on would be TT-AA and AK. Maybe AQs, AJs or KQs. A smaller pocket pair like 99 or 88 is less likely, but possible.

The hero's ace outs are very questionable, and even if he hits one of his three jacks, he's still behind to AA, KK, QQ, JJ and AK. What does that leave? A running Q-T for a straight?

I think there are better opportunites to make a stand against an unknown opponent.

[rharless]

I have raised 3 hands in a row and no one knows what I had on the previous two hands. A 3-betting range by other opponents is now wider. I think your expected hand range is too narrow.

For the record, I did not know the opponent who 3-bet me, but he had shown nothing out of the ordinary thus far.

Btw, I am a heroine. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Vehn]

In a standard, "hand in a bottle", just sat down, totally default play - doing anything other than check folding when you raise UTG in a full 15/30 game with AJ and are 3-bet by the button and the flop comes K x x, is terrible poker and throwing away money and I challenge anyone to say otherwise.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
In a standard, "hand in a bottle", just sat down, totally default play - doing anything other than check folding when you raise UTG in a full 15/30 game with AJ and are 3-bet by the button and the flop comes K x x, is terrible poker and throwing away money and I challenge anyone to say otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Worrying about hand in a bottle poker isn't how people are going to advance from good player to expert. I challenge anyone to say otherwise. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

In all seriousness, this hand isn't in a bottle. It is in a game where multiple posters suggested that Heroine is likely go be 3-bet preflop by worse hands. It is a hand were this is even more likely the case because she had raised 2 hands prior. It is a hand played by a player (our Heroine)who likely has trouble getting action and doesn't mind throwing them a curveball by mixing it up a little. I submit that on this hand in this spot, calling down isn't a bad option. I think betting the flop is a fair option. I still think check-folding in the described game against the described opponents sucks.

Regardless, I was asked how to deal with this type of situation. The correct answer isn't "fold", anymore than it is "fold" when you miss with AK and get bet into on the flop. Sometime's its "fold", sure. And even if that happens to be the right move on this hand, if someone asks how they deal with missing the flop after getting 3-bet, I am doing them a tremendous disservice to just say "check-fold" without explaining that the best way to deal with the situation is to deal with it in multiple ways.

[warlockjd]

I just had the exact situation with an unkown minus the 3 raises in a row. I bet, got called bet the turn and he folded.

I think that this is my standard course of action 60% of the time, folding if raised without a read to the contrary

[MarkD]

With regards to the type of response I was hoping to pry out of you, these were the ones.. This type of response gets me thinking.

I also think Vehn makes a good point with the "hand in a bottle" statement. For example, at the 3-6 level at Party I have around 4000 players in my database and there were nights where I logged into 4 tables and of my 36 opponents I had never played against any of them before. In this type of environment, with the sheer volume of opponents, a by rote "hand in a bottle" approach can't be far wrong can it?

Balancing my game has always been something I haven't been all that good at, so this post strikes home. Something I've always questioned is the value of these types of balancing considerations within an isolated session. If I go to Vegas for one day and don't go back for a year is there much value in balancing my game with regards to playing in Vegas.

I've always thought the value of balancing ones game was only fully realized when employed in a situation where you are likely to have many repeated opponents. ie. a local casino where you play daily.

I don't mind being corrected on this point though, game balance is something I've never seen much written about (although I'm vaguely remembering something on Abdul's page) and I'm unsure of how to best employ it. I see a lot of potential to misapply the concepts of balance.

[rharless]

likely has trouble getting action

Getting action hasn't exactly been a problem for me since moving up to Party 15...

That said, I hated folding AJo here. I need more moxie -- but specifically the well timed and intuitive kind of moxie. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Nate tha' Great]

I think that, if you're going to play this hand, and you have to raise it if you're going to play it, then you also have to cap this hand, once the action gets back around to you and its heads up.

Thanks to the 4-bet cap at party, putting the bet in is going to cost you only a fraction in terms of expectation. My guess is that you have something like 40% equity against the range of hands that would 3-bet you here. That's not ideal, but, if you do the math, the cap costs you only 0.1 BB in terms of expecation.

One reason that you cap is that it increases the likelihood that your opponent will fold a better hand. The probability still won't be all that great, because this is exactly the sort of spot where your opponent might be inclined to check-and-call the whole way in order to see what you have, but because the magnitude of that mistake is so much greater than 0.1 BB, enhancing that possiblity by even a small fraction would be worthwhile.

But the more important reason that you should cap is that it prevents *you* from making a significant mistake, which is folding when you have a better hand. The Kxx flop is *exactly* the sort of flop where the cap would have been very helpful.

My default line of play would be to cap before the flop and bet out on the flop regardless of what comes off. If the flop is unfavoarable and you are raised, I'd probably take one more card off, being fairly liberal about what I consider to be a helpful turn card. If you're just called on the flop, I'd fire again on the turn, and consider folding to a raise depending on how the board looks.

[astroglide]

your default line of play with this "i just raised and i look kinda like i'm a maniac" context, right?