Mirage 6-12, JJ in BB

[Ed Miller]

If you project a reasonable chance of check-raising a late position bettor, I definitely like the flop check. For instance, I think I'd generally go for a check-raise in this spot in a typical 15-30 game. If you think there is a high chance that it will be checked around, then I'd prefer a bet. The pot is not so absurdly large that you need to be doing bizarre things.

After the flop gets checked around, I definitely think you should bet the turn against this passive crew.

[AviD]

HPFAP is next in line, started TOP a short while ago! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

In this case, can you elaborate on the value of the turn CR? The CR attempt on the flop was a whif...do you think that makes a CR more likely or less likely here when the 9 falls?

From the way I've read Sklansky thus far, while it is sometimes good to CR it is a mathematical disaster to allow a vulnerable hand to be outdrawn without making the other players pay to outdraw you.

Again, depending on who bets (early or late) on a CR attempt will dictate the effectiveness of it. Would that not be considered "gambling" in this sense with a vulnerable JJ hand? I think if the table is a bunch of calling stations, I would go for the CR...but if they are somewhat tight and likely to fold to a turn bet...I still think its best to bet here (on the turn especially after a whiffed flop CR).

Granted, I understand CRing has its place and time...just not convinced this is one of them. Why do you feel it is based on HPFAP?

[rharless]

Yes, I think I tried to apply the right idea, but not in extreme enough conditions -- meaning the pot is not overly huge (though it sure seemed big [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) -- and more so, I didn't think enough about if someone would realistically bet the flop. I just kinda figured, hey, six other people, SOMEONE has to bet. whoops [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[rharless]

Drunk button won with QTo (good call from him on the turn with the gutshot plus overcards).

One of the EP players indicated to me he folded a better Q.

[offTopic]

Don't raise preflop with JJ. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Just kidding - lighten up, people, it's (almost) Christmas!

[rharless]

I'm surprised no one responded with this earlier. Good one [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Bob T.]

Perfect. Merry Christmas to you, also.

[James282]

Hey AviD. A check-raise attempt on the flop is almost mandatory here, if people will fold overcards for 2 bets. Here is my reasoning:

A) People with draws, no matter how crappy will not ever fold for 1 bet if they suck, they may fold a gutshot for 2 bets.
B) Most people with overcards won't fold for 1 bet but will often fold for 2(and hell if they call you don't mind them paying this price instead of just 1 bet).
C) Late position players love to bet, very few flops get checked around against this many opponents.
D) You may get one of these middle pair folks to fold(eliminating their small shot to suck out on you).


The bottom line is - you gain equity on this hand by people folding and not by people calling. You need to figure out the best way to make these guys get the hell out of your pot.
If you fold one guy with KQ, one guy with middle pair and some weird kicker, and a gutshot straight draw, you have cleaned up 15 outs!! Granted this seems like ideal holding for your opponents, but it is far from out of the question. This is easily worth the small(in games I play) risk of having the flop checked through against this many opponents.
-James