Sklansky and the System

[Nottom]

Nobody is going to fold KK in this situation. Make it 10 players left and you 3 the chip leaders in the button and blinds and maybe he would fold.

[daryn]

i am going to agree with nottom. especially if you play the tourney circuit, you won't fold KK. now if you're some clown who just happened to get down to the final 3 and you realllly want to win (for the trophy or something) then you might fold it


by the way phil would actually rather have AK in this situation than KK if he were to move all in (assuming the 22 will fold when he sees 2 guys in for all their chips)

[JohnG]

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you're actually considering the possibility that hellmuth isn't deluded by his ego when he plays in a big tournament?

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Lol. He's definitely deluded if his articles are taken at face value. I'm just not sure what the gap is between his delusion and reality.

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sure, this isn't a close gamble. but if i considered myself one of the ten best players in the final event, i wouldn't call either. think about it this way: you make this call twice, and you've been eliminated 55% of the time.

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This may not refer to yourself, but I often wonder why so many players only consider the risk without also considering the reward.

And are we never the bigger stack when playing one of these all-ins?

I consider the best survival tactic for a better player in a tournament is to build a bigger stack than their inferior opponents.

Can the player really consider himself superior if he is often the shorter stack anyway?


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whether your goal is to win the tournament or just maximize your prize money EV, this is not a call you want to be making as one of the best players.

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Never? Maybe at some stages, in some situations, but never?

The only gambles a better player should avoid calling for all their chips is close ones. I don't see many situations where 2-1 fav to double through can be considered close. Against real donkeys, maybe.

There's plenty in the archives of 2+2 and rgp about this type of thing if anyone wants to look into this subject.

[SoBeDude]

And is QQ a coin flip against JJ? Plenty of tournament situations exist where you do not know it's a coinflip until the cards are actually turned over. Before that point, you may just as likely be a big favourite

But you are also NOT a coinflip if your opponent has KK and now you're the big underdog.

Whats funny is you're actually justifying the 'small bet' poker strategy with your comments. When you don't know where you are is the WORST time to put all your chips in the middle.

I'm sorry, but you have a long way to go to understand the dynamics of no limit holdem.

-Scott

[JohnG]

I put opponent on a range of hands and then call the all-in or fold. I know exactly where I am against the range of hands I read them for, and I make the best play based on it.

You're either the worlds greatest reader of players when playing shallow money, or you are extremely weak-tight. I hope for your sake it's the former.

I'm glad to finally find someone that understands no-limit dynamics so well. Maybe you can educate me and explain how the game changes between shallow and deep money play. How hand values change. How our options change depending on depth of money. That sort of thing.

Can you do that for me? Sure would be appreciated. Or do you play and think the same way under both? Sure looks that way with what you said in this thread.

[sam h]

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Its never good to get all your chips in the middle unless you have the nuts.

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This is no-limit suicide. You may as well forfeit the buy in and lie down in the street - you're getting run over one way or another playing this way. And the people doing it to you will be those same "serious poker players", who will identify you as weak and proceed to come over the top of you again and again. You may finally pick up AA or flop a set and trap them, but it will hardly matter because their stacks will be so much bigger than yours anyway by this point.

[CrisBrown]

Hi John,

<<I'm glad to finally find someone that understands no-limit dynamics so well. Maybe you can educate me and explain how the game changes between shallow and deep money play. How hand values change. How our options change depending on depth of money. That sort of thing.>>

And this is exactly the problem with "The System." It makes no distinction in the depth of the money, in where you stand in a tournament relative to the bubble, what the quality of your opponents are, etc. It simply gives a list of hands that you'll play, according to your position and what's happened ahead of you, and on any hand you play, you move all-in.

The reason for "the System" is that it gives the weaker player the fewest decisions to make -- all-in or fold pre-flop -- negating the skill advantage of stronger players who might otherwise maneuver you off of a better hand, or induce you to call with a lesser hand. It turns all of the post-flop action over to the dealer.

And -- like any other over-simplification of a complex system -- it gives up a lot. Specifically, it gives up the opportunity to get away from a hand. So unless you get off to a fast start, and keep getting lucky, you're going to face a lot of called-and-covered all-in situations. Even if by some miracle you always have the best hand when that happens -- and many of "the System" hands would not be -- you're still going to need a lot of luck to survive more than three or four of these.

And that's why skilled players prefer small-bet tournament poker. With more decisions to make, their skill advantage is magnified, and their risks minimized.

Cris

[Nottom]

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And that's why skilled players prefer small-bet tournament poker. With more decisions to make, their skill advantage is magnified, and their risks minimized

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And this is why the system works (somewhat) against good opponents, but not in most online tourneys.

[CrisBrown]

Hiya nottom,

You're right that "the System" is more effective against good players, and oddly, that's why the best strategy at a table with a "System" player is to wait for looser players to take him out, unless you have a monster hand. "System" players are tight enough that you'll get plenty of pots to play when they're not involved, so you can usually play to avoid them and let them run themselves onto the rocks of Fate....

Cris

[William]

I totally second this comment. I will even say that if he has 99 he will call faster than you can realize.