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#21
11-27-2003, 02:05 PM
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Re: PS - here\'s a copy of the follow-up email to TR4RAIDERS1
I was one of those who made the final table who, earlier in the tournament, inadvertently used an all-in. It was a hand where I had a tough decision to make and went into a bit of a think. Just before the final bell, I clicked the Fold button. Aparently, the system didn't get my action soon enough and took me all-in. The only thing I may be guilty of is perhaps taking just a bit too long to think.
If I were going to intentionally abuse an all-in, it would've been on my last hand, where I was knocked out. Facing another tough decision, I had to either call a bet and shove all my remaining chips in, or fold and risk getting blinded out later that orbit. I could've taken the chicken's way out and timed out all-in. Instead, I shoved my chips into the pot and lost. Them's the breaks. Still got a very nice payday. I have stated my opinion as to how TR4RAIDERS should be punished. But just to be clear, since his transgression was the most blatant, and his attitude so arrogant, I believe he should be completely disqualified from the tournament and all other players moved up 1 spot. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize I have something to gain by this decision. In the interest of full disclosure, I would gain an extra $100 if this was the final decision. TGC Guy, your participation on this forum is amazing. You never shy away from criticism. All legitimate gripes are addressed promptly and candidly. That is very, very much appreciated. I don't think anybody here expects you to be perfect. The fact that you guys are willing to come on here and face the zoo when you fall short of perfection speaks volumes to your dedication to making long-lasting relationships. When you say you'll get it right in the end, I believe you. Keep up the good work. 
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#22
11-27-2003, 02:37 PM
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Re: PS - here\'s a copy of the follow-up email to TR4RAIDERS1
i bet thats me of some1s xmas card list as it was me that questioned him on the final table re the all in [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
but i h8 this kinda BS i reckon the money $1800 should be put into a game say for zoo members and the winner can nominate charity of their choice 1 or 2 winners ... just pick 10 names from here i had the opposite a while back when i had serious isp problems related to a tellar point i have for a mail order business and i had 3 all ins on a table i apologised without reservation and left the table but still got flamed to hell... but after the tellar point was replaced and software reistalled i havent had 1 problem in the last 300 hours online (this was at stars and altho one person still tries to bring it up well i know what happened... mind u stars confirmed that they were more than happy with my patronage and that i was in no way to blame )
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#23
11-27-2003, 07:18 PM
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Re: PS - here\'s a copy of the follow-up email to TR4RAIDERS1
[ QUOTE ]
With regards to the intentional all-in, I would disqualify Tr4raiders at the point that he did it, and give him the cash he had earned up to that point. ... I don't feel he should need to forfeit all of his winnings, he did earn his spot a the final table, after all. [/ QUOTE ] To be honest we're waivering on this issue --- one the one hand you do have a point, but on the other our All-in Policy states that abuse may result in disqualification ... ordinarily that would be interpretted as forfeiture of all prize money. Perhaps it should also be said that giving of cash earned at that point potentially makes all-in abuse a no-lose situation --- if the player gets caught they still get to keep what they've won until then. Ultimately this is somewhat academic, since the situation won't arise again given that this happened because of a mistake in the setup of this specific tournament. However, we'd still appreciate further comments in order to resolve the action to take in this case.
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#24
11-27-2003, 07:47 PM
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Re: PS - here\'s a copy of the follow-up email to TR4RAIDERS1
give the prize to the ones who didnt use any all ins the whole tourny ( like me) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
just kidding though... be a tough call what to do cause i was at a table where a guy stated he thought thats what they are for to use them lol (yeh right)... so alot of players abused it in this tourny which is a good sign for you guys never to allow all ins in tournys again! but I do think taking all ins away from the player for ever on all in abuse would work, no need to ban them. I also think they shouldnt get a prize they dont deserve either though. In ring games i think 1 all in per day would work and would cut down great deal on abuse. Good Job on the tourny blinds now they work great [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#25
11-28-2003, 11:25 AM
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Re: PS - here\'s a copy of the follow-up email to TR4RAIDERS1
[ QUOTE ]
but I do think taking all ins away from the player for ever on all in abuse would work, no need to ban them. I also think they shouldnt get a prize they dont deserve either though. In ring games i think 1 all in per day would work and would cut down great deal on abuse. [/ QUOTE ] *bump* ... more opinions please -- do we give all, part or none of the tourney winnings in this case (see earlier posts in this thread for more detail) [ QUOTE ] Good Job on the tourny blinds now they work great [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#26
11-28-2003, 11:44 AM
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Re: PS - here\'s a copy of the follow-up email to TR4RAIDERS1
GC..........
Why put yourself in the position of having to go through all of this....Just ensure that there are no all-ins allowed in tournaments and you won't have to deal with this issue any longer. In this particular case, the chat clearly shows that the all-in was intentional. Given the wide disparity of online players, I have seen enough of them firmly believing that the use of all-in protetion is there to be used as part of game strategy, which, of course, any experienced player knows is not the case. You're not going to change the mind of these morons, and you're wasting your time trying. Intentional use of all-in protection is BLATANT cheating, and anyone who does it should have ALL of their money confiscated and be banned from the site. In the end, the integrity of your site is the only thing that you have to hang your hat on if you intend to grow it. Those of us who are observant will be watching.
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#27
11-28-2003, 11:53 AM
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Re: PS - here\'s a copy of the follow-up email to TR4RAIDERS1
Well put Myrtle.
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#28
11-28-2003, 12:26 PM
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Re: PS - here\'s a copy of the follow-up email to TR4RAIDERS1
[ QUOTE ]
However, clearly something is wrong when all but one of top 10 finishers had at least one all-in during the event. [/ QUOTE ] I was #15 with no allins, guess that makes me more odd than not. The game really got messed up, couldn't bluff as much as I wanted, but I know it was a one time thing. Anyways concerning TR4RAISERS1 allin admitted cheating, I think it is no doubt that all his winnings should be forfitted, if it was a doubt if he did it on purpose or not, then the ruling would have to be made on his record etc, but admitting to cheating means guilty as charged. And he should not get a lesser part of the prizemoney either. If you were playing Black Jack at a Casino and had won 20 000, but the Cameras found out that you had been cheating since you were 10 000 up (but not before), do you think they would let you keep 10 000? The signal effect of rewarding cheaters would not ring well in the poker community. I have nothing to gain monitarily by having him disqualified, just want to play in an environment where cheaters don't feel welcome. Take the Cheats out of Poker!
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#30
11-28-2003, 12:41 PM
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Re: PS - here\'s a copy of the follow-up email to TR4RAIDERS1
[ QUOTE ]
Why put yourself in the position of having to go through all of this....Just ensure that there are no all-ins allowed in tournaments and you won't have to deal with this issue any longer. [/ QUOTE ] That's usually the rule --- there was a mistake in the setup of that particular tournament. [ QUOTE ] Intentional use of all-in protection is BLATANT cheating, and anyone who does it should have ALL of their money confiscated and be banned from the site. [/ QUOTE ] Thanks -- this is the sort of firm opinion that we're looking for in proceeding to a final decision in this case, altho we don't entirely agree with banning someone. Removing their all-in protection solves the problem but allows them to continue playing without the option of abusing the all-in protection. Anyway, hopefully the situation isn't going to arise again (in a tournament that is) in future, since the people who are responsible for the setup of tournaments now know to be extra careful about checking that the zero all-ins option is properly set. [ QUOTE ] In the end, the integrity of your site is the only thing that you have to hang your hat on if you intend to grow it. Those of us who are observant will be watching. [/ QUOTE ] This we are very aware of, hence our stance that long-term reputation is more important to us than the short-term costs of taking appropriate action against all-in abusers.
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