Bet my draw, hit my hand, and now it's two bets back to me...

[MaxPower]

Yes, but when the flush does hit and I've been check-calling along, many times you wont get action on a bet or raise since your play will scream 'draw' to many players. By betting, I tend to disguise my hand more - as was the case here. Getting raised and re-raised, as happened here, was of course the extreme result and took me by surprise. Obviously, though, they didn't read me on a flush draw.

Good post.

I think the most important reason to bet your draws is that you will be too readable if you don't. If you always bet made hands and check and call with draws, they will always know exactly what you have. By betting your draws, you'll get more action on your draws and on your made hands.

At low limits this is not a problem against many players, but there are enough good players and loose-aggressive types who will take advantage of this.

[bugstud]

Do you bet the turn if you don't pick up the open-ender?

[ElSapo]

Do you bet the turn if you don't pick up the open-ender?

In this case, and in most cases, no - unless something like all but one opponent folded, in which case I bet hoping to fold him.

[GuyOnTilt]

Do you bet the turn if you don't pick up the open-ender?

No, he wouldn't. Not into 3 opponents. Hopefully.

[ElSapo]

No, he wouldn't. Not into 3 opponents. Hopefully.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Guy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ...

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
I do tend to bet my flush draws, for a number of reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay.

[ QUOTE ]
In early position, ideally, I'd get a bunch of callers and a raise and be able to three-bet for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a little more than ideal. First of all, you need 2 callers plus the raiser. Secondly, if the raise comes from any other place, you can get screwed. Lastly, I am not even sure if 3 betting is good there. I frequently, and I mean very often, see people call 1 bet on the Flop but fold for another two. I've done it several times myself. If even 1 person drops to the 3 bet, but would've called the 2 bet, you're better off just calling the raise. I think you are a little too excited about this "bet and 3 bet with my draw" concept.

[ QUOTE ]
In late position, if it's checked to me, I can bet and many times I'll get to the river for half-price as I'm the only one who's shown strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem with that. This is not a bet for value. I am arguing your saying that you bet your flush draws for value.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't generally worry about knocking people out with my bet, especially if it's an overcard flush draw. On a low, uncoordinated board, if I'm on a nut flush draw there's a chance my bet will knock out an Axs who hit his kicker, and will then clean up my overcard outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem betting your flush draw when you have an overcard to get others to fold.

[ QUOTE ]
I'll also raise for a free card, depending on where the bet comes from. Obviously, if it's directly to my right, I'm better off calling and keeping other callers in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also have no problem with tactfully raising your flush draw. It is the whole betting thing that I don't like.

[ QUOTE ]
With four or more opponents, if someone bets and you get that many callers then I think it's an easy raise (again, depending on where the bet comes from).

[/ QUOTE ]

You confused "opponents" with "callers". If you have 4 or more CALLERS, then yes, check-raise for value. If you have 4 or more OPPONENTS, then I think checking is the better play because the bet often goes in ANYWAYS.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but when the flush does hit and I've been check-calling along, many times you wont get action on a bet or raise since your play will scream 'draw' to many players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said in my original post, you should obviously vary your play so that you don't aren't easy to read. However, for me this would mean sometimes betting my flush draws; apparently for you that would mean sometimes checking your flush draws [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I still don't see reasons to not check your flush draw when you have many left to act behind you.

-Brian

[ElSapo]

Lastly, I am not even sure if 3 betting is good there. I frequently, and I mean very often, see people call 1 bet on the Flop but fold for another two.

The ideal situation would be for multiple people to call the raise after I bet - and having already put in two bets then call one more when I three-bet.

am arguing your saying that you bet your flush draws for value.

If I get sufficient callers, then I am betting for value. Judging when you'll get the callers, of course, is key and comes often from table texture and specific opponents. Granted, the initial post didn't include that information.

If you have 4 or more OPPONENTS, then I think checking is the better play because the bet often goes in ANYWAYS.

Often, but not always. This was an unraised pot and there's no gaurantee at Party 2/4 someone is going to take a shot.

If we know for sure that exactly one bet is going into the pot on the flop, I see a lot of advantages to being the player doing the betting rather than calling.

I still don't see reasons to not check your flush draw when you have many left to act behind you.

They might not bet for me.
They might not call.
They might all call.

[Brian]

Hi ElSapo,

You have summed up your side pretty well with those 3 concise statements. I am going to sum up my side with equal brevity.

[ QUOTE ]
They might not bet for me.

[/ QUOTE ] In which case you are better checking; more than likely if everyone checks then you won't get the 3 callers needed for a value bet unless you are at a table full of very passive calling stations (which was stated in one of my earlier posts)

[ QUOTE ]
They might not call.

[/ QUOTE ] I love semi-bluffs.

[ QUOTE ]
They might all call.

[/ QUOTE ] In which case the bet almost certainly will go into the pot anyways.

It seems we'll have to wait for the experts to settle this one [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-Brian