I suck hard at blind vs. blind battles

With that flop you can't go for the check-raise on the turn imho. You can't give away free suckouts.

[cassady]

you're OOP here. The issue isn't going for a check raise, it's betting out with top pair, getting raised, then ther'es the choice between either calling or 3-betting.

[Clarkmeister]

I'm with Cassady on this one. I think 3-betting the turn is the right play here against most opponents.

[Harv72b]

I do not like a turn 3-bet at all. Consider the possible holdings that a halfway normal player would take this line with, as the big blind:

1) flopped monster goes for the delayed raise. It's entirely possible that villain could call preflop with 64, 33, or even 55 here. Besides possible 2-pair hands, of course. In this case, Hero is likely playing into a turn cap, which gets really tricky in this situation.

2) the jack helped him. Hero's 8 kicker ain't that hot, even in a blind battle, considering the unknown status of the villain. Most people aren't going to bother calling the flop bet with jack high unless they have two overcards or some kind of draw to go with it; if he is holding two overcards to the flop and the jack hit him, then the best Hero can hope for is a chop with another J8. If he called the flop bet with a hand like J6 or J4 and his gutshot draw, then you might be giving up a bet by just calling vs. 3-betting. But since there are more jack combinations which are comfortably ahead of Hero than behind, I don't see the value in a 3-bet if this is the case.

3) A total bluff with air. He then probably folds to a 3-bet, when he would often have bet again on the river if Hero just calls the raise and checks the river. A small percentage of the time he catches a single overcard to beat Hero's top pair, a few more times he gives up and checks through the river, but I have to think that Hero makes more money by inducing the river bluff here. We are, of course, assuming that an unknown is even capable of a bluff raise on the turn.

4) delayed turn raise on a semibluff or lower than top pair, aimed at inducing a fold from Hero. Again, even in a 5/10 blind battle, I wouldn't assume that an unknown is going to try this often enough to consider it.

Frankly, I think the turn action is pretty obvious. It's the question of whether to check/call or bet/fold the river that is closer, IMO, though I lean towards check/call for the informational value that I gain from showdown, as well as the possibility that MHIG.

[goofball]

I'm not wild about the PF raise, but I also feel this position is my single weakest spot in limit holdem so meh.

Give that you raised PF you should bet the flop, the A high you might have is good after that flop. You should reraise the turn too, in blind battles people have a 5 or a 7 here tons and tons of times. He could also have a worse J (remember no PF 3bet). Had you 3bet the turn I would have just kept firing on the river. I'm still debating about folding to a raise but I think checking gives up massive amounts of value to a 7 or a 5.

The way you played it I think donking the river is bad. You'll fold many worse hands and zero better ones. Checkcall is fine.

[Clarkmeister]

There's a lot more that can be going on other than "we are toast or the guy has air". And a lot of those hands, we don't mind if they fold for one more bet. Far too often you call the turn raise, the river goes check, check, and they show down their middle pair or whatever.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a lot more that can be going on other than "we are toast or the guy has air". And a lot of those hands, we don't mind if they fold for one more bet. Far too often you call the turn raise, the river goes check, check, and they show down their middle pair or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but the information we gain on the currently unknown player to our immediate left, as well as the metagame implications of taking this line with top pair, can make up for a missed bet or two on this particular hand over the course of the table session. Assuming of course that he calls a turn 3-bet and/or river bet with less than top pair himself.

[Jake (The Snake)]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if we are behind the villian's range. For most players, any pocket pair above jacks would be 3-bet reflop. So would AJ, and possibly a J with any broadway. I think our hand is good a fair amount of the time.

While I agree that a lot of the time letting an opponent bet the river will get us the same amount of money, I can quite easily see an aggressive opponent semi-bluff raising an A-high or small to medium pair on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I think I was wrong on this one. There are many Ax hands that have gutshots and could be semibluffing here, or middle pairs looking to take a free showdown.

We probably can't "protect our hand" since that implies we would give villain incorrect odds to call. However we certainly can raise for value.

Thinking about it again, my guess would be we are ahead maybe 60%ish percent of the time... so I wouldn't mind reraising the turn.

What are we doing to a cap?

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if we are behind the villian's range. For most players, any pocket pair above jacks would be 3-bet reflop. So would AJ, and possibly a J with any broadway. I think our hand is good a fair amount of the time.

While I agree that a lot of the time letting an opponent bet the river will get us the same amount of money, I can quite easily see an aggressive opponent semi-bluff raising an A-high or small to medium pair on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I think I was wrong on this one. There are many Ax hands that have gutshots and could be semibluffing here, or middle pairs looking to take a free showdown.

We probably can't "protect our hand" since that implies we would give villain incorrect odds to call. However we certainly can raise for value.

Thinking about it again, my guess would be we are ahead maybe 60%ish percent of the time... so I wouldn't mind reraising the turn.

What are we doing to a cap?

[/ QUOTE ]
call and check/fold the river UI as we likely have odds to draw to a two hand against the villain's capping range.

[tewall]

I think you're getting 12 to 1 odds to call in this situation. I don't see how you can fold that, unless you knew the player. Wrongly folding here would be a huge mistake. What if villain is just pushing a draw really hard?