Raising Preflop

[sy_or_bust]

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I proved in a previous post that you do not have a huge edge, in fact your edge is very small (even though you still have an edge) as you start to add opponents. I would also like to know where my math faltered here. 80% of a 5BB pot yields a EV or 4BBs, while 10% of a 14-15BB pot yields 1.4-1.5BB. Please explain.

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where does 80% of a 5BB pot come from? and the other figure?

you made them up. try some equity analysis and you'll see your mistake. also, this sort of analysis even underestimates your edge since you can significantly outplay your opponents postflop. this is why you can loosen up considerably in multiway pots with bad players, limping stuff like K5s in LP against a couple live players.

you may not have much of an edge, if any, but you are +EV postflop and want to play as many pots as possible against the weak players. the bigger the pot, the better for you. see an old post by ed miller about preflop training wheels.

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When I raise preflop I am not hoping people will fold. Ever. In fact, when I play poker, I am not hoping anything; this is aside from the point.

When I raise AK UTG I want 9 callers. When I raise J10s on the button I want 2 callers.

I do not want to thin the field. I raise for value. Thinning the field is a myth.

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not true. value raising is great, and you seem to understand it well. isolation raising is also great.

if you're facing a loose limper and hold a hand like K9o in the hijack, you have position and an equity edge against this weak player's range of hands. you also have the opportunity to steal the button and knock out the blinds (or force them to call OOP, etc.). Depending on table conditions, this can be a great raise, where you'd much rather be heads up or three-handed with a BB. the same concept applies to isolating light raisers, weak-tight limpers, and other predictable players.

blind stealing is also an interesting area. you will meet opponents against whom you should raise any 2 cards, because they defend poorly (by folding too much preflop or on the flop). simple math problem. you gradually tighten up as players become tougher, but sometimes this only means throwing away your weakest 25% of hands because the blinds still suck a fair amount. sometimes it means only open-raising your best 35% or so, large on a value basis. it's always a balancing act, but fold equity plays a crucial role, and it's tied to position.

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I concede there are spots where the blinds may play so tightly that you should raise any two. I wonder if it should ever be any # other than :

mathematically defined superior hand range of remaining players compared to your hand

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every hand

To explain further : if the blinds are playing so tight that raising makes a profit because they fold so often preflop (or to continuation bets) then you should be raising ATC. If they are playing any less tightly than this, what % of hands should you be playing? This appears to be a tricky problem to consider. Since raising ATC is not profitable anymore, is raising ATC - 5% going to be profitable? I would have to look into this.

Regardless, I refuse to play in games like this, so it doesn't really matter to me.

Isolation raising is really just value raising by another name.

[Nick Royale]

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When I raise preflop I am not hoping people will fold. Ever.

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I think you need to start stealing blinds.

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When I raise preflop I am not hoping people will fold. Ever.

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I think you need to start stealing blinds.

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It is extremely rare for it to be folded to me in late position in the games I play in.

[sy_or_bust]

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It is extremely rare for it to be folded to me in late position in the games I play in.

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you keep saying this, and its really dumb. if its true, than the games discussed here are vastly different (and tougher) than the games you play in. thats OK. but if you aspire to move up stakes or play tougher games, you need to learn how to play in these special situations where you can boost your winrate by punishing loose players and weak blinds. ignoring these situations cannot be good.

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It is extremely rare for it to be folded to me in late position in the games I play in.

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you keep saying this, and its really dumb. if its true, than the games discussed here are vastly different (and tougher) than the games you play in. thats OK. but if you aspire to move up stakes or play tougher games, you need to learn how to play in these special situations where you can boost your winrate by punishing loose players and weak blinds. ignoring these situations cannot be good.

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I punish loose players constantly. As for playing in tougher games I have no desire to do so. I am confidant I can find loose limit games as far as my foray into limit hold'em will take me.

[krimson]

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When I raise preflop I am not hoping people will fold. Ever.

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I think you need to start stealing blinds.

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It is extremely rare for it to be folded to me in late position in the games I play in.

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Live 3/6?

[Nick Royale]

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It is extremely rare for it to be folded to me in late position in the games I play in.

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you keep saying this, and its really dumb. if its true, than the games discussed here are vastly different (and tougher) than the games you play in. thats OK. but if you aspire to move up stakes or play tougher games, you need to learn how to play in these special situations where you can boost your winrate by punishing loose players and weak blinds. ignoring these situations cannot be good.

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I punish loose players constantly. As for playing in tougher games I have no desire to do so. I am confidant I can find loose limit games as far as my foray into limit hold'em will take me.

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What limit at what sites are you playing? If you're playing party 1/2 and have no desire to move up I can understand what you're saying.

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When I raise preflop I am not hoping people will fold. Ever.

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I think you need to start stealing blinds.

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It is extremely rare for it to be folded to me in late position in the games I play in.

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Live 3/6?

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Live 3/6 - 10/20
Online $1/$2 - $3/$6

I agree with her about this and I cant see how it's dumb.

When I play 2/4 live in our casino I notice the same thing. The games are so loose that I rarely even get the chance to open, much less open raise to try to steal the blinds.

That's merely an observation, Im not sure why it would be "dumb".

And if I understand her point, I think she's just pointing out the reasoning behind raising, it's not like she's necessarily doing anything any diffrent than anyone else.