The worst mistakes in NL are made with drawing hands

[tewall]

Thank you for your well thought answer.

The overbet makes sense to me if it is likely to get called. It's much more likely that the opponent will have a draw than a hand that could beat yours, so the important factor, IMO, is how likely you are to get called if you overbet the pot, not the chance that your hand may be beat. I think you should bet the maximum amount that a drawing hand is likely to call.

Against good players, I agree with your reasoning, but against poor players who overvalue draws, the overbets make sense I think, which I think you agreed with when you said that it's only good against weak players. The poster was addressing weak players when he said he likes to overbet the pot to wreck their odds.

I don't think calling a pot-sized bet with a draw is necessarily a big mistake. First of all, you don't know your opponent will necessarily bet the turn, especially if your call is more likely to be sandbagging a legitamate hand than be a drawing hand. Secondly if a blank hits on fourth, you could make a play for the pot. You're not likely to be put on a draw, so if a blank hits on fourth and you spring to life, a top pair/top kicker hand may be very likely to fold to a raise. If the raise doesn't work, you can fall back on the draw. If you have a straight draw, you could represent a flush draw if the flush completes and have the straight draw if that's what hits.

As you point out, a big consideration is how likely you are to get paid off if your draw comes through. I don't disagree with your logic, I just think the categorical statement "calling a draw on the flop is a big mistake" is too strong.

[DJA]

Calling a draw on the flop is a big mistake:

This is definitely not correct... Sorry if I didn't represent what I meant.

1. First, you may have a draw that is better then your opponents made hand. IE... Opponent has Jd9d and the flop is Js Ts 2d. Your opponent bets pot and you have... Ks Qs. You are a favorite in this hand and you should shove all of the money you can into the pot right now.

2. Like you said, you can represent the other draw that made it. You are on a straight / over cards draw, but the flush comes. You can represent the flush on the turn, and possibly take it down. However, this obviously backfires when your opponent was representing a made hand on the flop, but he was actually on a flush draw [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img] .

3. I have read on this forum that straight draws do not get noticed as much as flush draws. I tend to agree with this, so if I was on a straight draw, I believe I am more likely to get paid off, so it is alright to call with a draw if your opponent is deep enough to make it worth your while, and he will make it worth your while when you hit.

Just My Thoughts,

[J_V]

Could you stop taking other people's ideas and using them as your own.

[tewall]

I agree with all the points. My experience is when flush cards come the action slows down and you don't get paid, unless you're fortunate enough to be in a big flush against small flush situation. If the flop is something like Q 9 6 you can easily have two shots at a straight, neither of which is too obvious.

I liked your point #2. The flush bluff does have its problems when someone else has a flush. However, even there, maybe a small flush will fold. The nice thing about faking a flush draw with a straight draw is that it's an easy bluff to pull off as you really are playing for a draw. You only have to play act for one bet.