Again with cold calling small pairs

[Spicymoose]

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if i recall you raise 44 FIRST IN from CO or Button and fold otherwise.

Calling a PF raise here is not +EV.

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I think you are right that this situation isn't EV+, but give me one more cold caller, and I think it becomes a call.

[cfjr2]

If you are calling a PF raise from the button you need to have the raiser and 3 cold callers to even begin to make this profitable.

a) that gives you 4:1 on your immediate bet - you should be able to make that up if you flop trips (the rare times you win w/o improving will barely, if even, make up the times you have your set cracked)

b) These are cold calls - assumably they will have at least a little bit of a hand thereby reducing the value of yours.

c) the biggest differnce is First In (or maybe against a limper or 2) you are saying you have THE hand.
w/o limpers you make the blinds call - most likely incorrectly (unless they have another PP)
w/ limpers you are getting assumed value since they didn't raise they likely were giving some marginal hand "a try". BUT with limpers you have to hope they fold or you fold them on the flop as now any over card (of which there are many for 44) is more likely to beat you (given the extra trash being played).

Come to think of it - I don't think I like playing this with more than 1 limper and I need to belive I can fold the blinds with my raise.

I fold this preflop.

[DMBFan23]

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fold preflop

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how much less do you disagree when the situation is raise, call, action to you preflop? the raiser is UTG so it's not an iso raise, tighter ranges, etc. but then again we have better relative position. 55 would be a call in that spot yes?

[rory]

i dont get it. you are 8:1 to flop a set and the pot is raised too so you have to make up double the bets postflop. how could this possibly be good if you are going to only get 3 or 4 way action? you gotta make up 4-5 BB postflop every time you flop a set just to break even. and your set isn't always good. maybe there is some value in consulting the oracle and figuring out when your 44 is good UI but i am pretty skeptical about that. i could be convinced though. online, no physical reads, very aggro shorthanded games.. seems pretty unlikely barring a miracle or pattern mapper or something.

[rory]

i think these sorts of obviously bad cold calls are symptomns of ego creeping into someone's game. this seems like an "i can outplay these guys postflop so i can call here" situation. maybe i am wrong though. i've done this kind of stuff in the past and that is what it was, so maybe i am just projecting.

[cfjr2]

from the button i "might" call a raise with 88 or 77, normally 99 + (and that is still probably a mistake 99 or TT+ is likely a reraise).

[DMBFan23]

rory,

I can dig this.

[josh1122]

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fold preflop

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same and I don't think it's close. You only have 2 opponents to extract your 4 BB from. It's really aweful.

Krishan

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Why is no one assuming one or both of the blinds will come along? Because if one or both do which happens more than neither IMO then I think this is a call preflop.

[cfjr2]

i'd be willing to give you the BB on a "usual" basis but not both - that means you play against 3 opponents you need 4 or 5 to make this worth the 7-1 shot for a set. with 5 you should get your other 2 PF bets back and a couple more for the times your set gets cracked.

With 3 or 4 you will often not make up the missing bets (instead of 2 PF bets you are missing 3 or 4 and have fewer contributers to make up the difference)

This is why this is a much shorthanded - there are just not enough players in to call this raise - you must be first in and raise in order to play this post flop for profit.