Please tell me, why do experienced players have 'Amnesia'?

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Based on your response here, it seems you have the same attitude for New Posters in the forum here, as I suspect you treat Newbies at the table.

So, Thank you VERY much for just proving my point ... and IMO, becoming the Poster boy for this issue.


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My post was absolutely, 100% a joke. I guess I should have made that clear. My original read of your post left me with the impression that the guy at your table was a real ass. That is still probably true, but it appears that you may be a bit hypersensitive.

- MAC

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Mac, no, I'm not hypersensitive, but here on the net, I can't see your smile, or if it's a sincere one or not. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

That said, I've been around BBS systems for over 25 years now, since the very first ones were born back before the Internet became popular.

Back then, you had to use most often, a 300 baud modem (1200's didn't come later, and when they did, boy were they expensive, but we were glad to have them back then), and some cobbled together computer to access them.

I myself was a SysOp (System Operator) of an old style BBS system.

Hence, I know it can take only ONE person, if their jabs (be they just in fun, or truly are a personal attack on someone) are left unanswered, to derail a serious discussion, and turn it into a Flame war and name calling session.

This because others will then take the unanswered dig, as permission that THEY also can go in that same direction.

Hence, why I responded as I did.

If you're serious, and you were 'Just Kidding' then you should state as such in the message a little further down, and then add some serious input to the thread.

JMHO, FWIW ...

Doyle Brunson tells a story about a poker pro yelling at his wife for doing something stupid while he is teaching her how to play. In frustration, he asks her how she can make a play that is so obviously wrong.

Later, Doyle pulls the pro aside and asks him how obvious a particular poker concept was to him one minute before he learned about it.

I try to remember this in everyday life. A mechanic may think I'm stupid for not noticing something "obviously" wrong about my car, but that's because he's a professional not because I'm necessarily stupid.

I've only been playing hold'em for low stakes for a couple of years, so I'm definitely no pro. What kills me, though, is that this stuff happens even at 5.50 SNG's. Like anyone sitting down for a game at that limit is Phil freaking Hellmuth.

What I've found, though, is that most low level table coaches only have enough knowledge to be dangerous. I can usually outplay 'em.

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Doyle Brunson tells a story about a poker pro yelling at his wife for doing something stupid while he is teaching her how to play. In frustration, he asks her how she can make a play that is so obviously wrong.

Later, Doyle pulls the pro aside and asks him how obvious a particular poker concept was to him one minute before he learned about it.

I try to remember this in everyday life. A mechanic may think I'm stupid for not noticing something "obviously" wrong about my car, but that's because he's a professional not because I'm necessarily stupid.

I've only been playing hold'em for low stakes for a couple of years, so I'm definitely no pro. What kills me, though, is that this stuff happens even at 5.50 SNG's. Like anyone sitting down for a game at that limit is Phil freaking Hellmuth.

What I've found, though, is that most low level table coaches only have enough knowledge to be dangerous. I can usually outplay 'em.

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That Doyle, he's one VERY smart guy, isn't he?

Very well put by him!

[bernie]

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Thus the question ... why is it so hard for most experienced players to remember the trials and tribulations of when they themselves first learned how to play poker?


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Ego.

These 'experienced' players have given up learning. Being engulfed in the denial that they actually do suck at the game, they instead find solace in berating new players plays. Which is one reason it's soooooooo satisfying to beat the sh*t out of these players on the table.

These are, for the most part, not winning players that do this. Think of that when they open their yaps. Consider the source where it's coming from. If they were winners, they'd know full well where the money comes from and would encourage it, not discourage it. Given your situation, I hope you become great and kick the hell out of them. Then as you move up limits, they'll be left scratching their heads as they stay where they're at.

b

[jb9]

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Ego.
These 'experienced' players have given up learning. Being engulfed in the denial that they actually do suck at the game, they instead find solace in berating new players plays.

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I think this is a big big part of this attitude of berating the inexperienced -- in poker and life.

People have a strong natural tendency to want to think well of themselves and to assign blame for situations they are unhappy about rather than accepting the fact that it is their own fault or bad luck or some combination thereof.

Often if there is no clear place to assign blame (or it is too risky to assign blame where it belongs) people will seek out scapegoats to satisfy their need to blame someone (which they MUST do or else they will have to confront the possibility that they have failed or the world is a bad place -- two things they refuse to consider).

So, if someone 'knows' that he is a good poker player and can beat the game but keeps losing, then it must be someone else's fault. It may not be entirely clear who is at fault, so the player defaults to blaming the easiest person to blame -- the new player who doesn't know anyone at the table and is probably insecure enough to not know how to react.

Thus order is restored to the player's world view... he is still a good player (obviously better than you -- as he just explained/proved), poker is still a beatable game, and his losses are your fault.

[SNOWBALL138]

Hi CincyLady,

These "experienced players" that you are talking about are probably mostly losing players. They behave that way because they are troubled people, and are losers in life. Making fun of you for calling with a counterfitted underpair or forgetting to post your blind is one of the few moments that they can feel better than someone else.

Why begrudge them that, when you can just play better and take their money instead?

The other night, a losing player called me a "chip burner" and he went on to insult me further, and then he finally said "thats okay, I love chip burners." My response was "Good, I'm glad to be of service."

Obviously, what happened to you was more severe than that. I'm very glad that the poker room manager handled the situation so well. I'm also glad that you found the twoplustwo publishing website. You'll be happy to hear that many 2+2ers refuse to tolerate abusive behavior at the tables. Welcome aboard.

Cheers,
Snowball

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Hi CincyLady,

These "experienced players" that you are talking about are probably mostly losing players. They behave that way because they are troubled people, and are losers in life. Making fun of you for calling with a counterfitted underpair or forgetting to post your blind is one of the few moments that they can feel better than someone else.

Why begrudge them that, when you can just play better and take their money instead?

The other night, a losing player called me a "chip burner" and he went on to insult me further, and then he finally said "thats okay, I love chip burners." My response was "Good, I'm glad to be of service."

Obviously, what happened to you was more severe than that. I'm very glad that the poker room manager handled the situation so well. I'm also glad that you found the twoplustwo publishing website. You'll be happy to hear that many 2+2ers refuse to tolerate abusive behavior at the tables. Welcome aboard.

Cheers,
Snowball

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Thanks for the welcome Snowball! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The thing is though, I guess another question I might have then, is why do those who ARE truly 'experienced' (Good) Players, who are sitting at the same table, ALLOW for it to happen or continue then?

I mean had not that manager gone the extra mile and looked up my phone number, I wouldn't be in poker today.

I simply would of thought it too stressful a game, and walked away from it.

I wonder how many newbies to poker HAVE walked away from Poker, due to the rudeness of 'bad' players who have been playing a long time, and 'experienced' (good) Players, sitting at the same table, who don't stand up for the Newbie, and allow for it to either happen, or allow for the (bad) behavior to continue??

[SNOWBALL138]

Hi Cincylady,

you wrote:

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'experienced' (good) Players, sitting at the same table, who don't stand up for the Newbie, and allow for it to either happen, or allow for the (bad) behavior to continue??

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Thats a hard question to answer. It probably has something to do with a lack of theoretical understanding of where the profit comes from in poker. Some players win without understanding why. There have been a number of threads about the appropriate way to intervene in situations like this, and for that reason, I believe that many 2+2ers would defend the new player at the table.

Thankfully (for obvious reasons), most players are not 2+2ers. Some of the good players you are meeting are probably only modest winners. Others may be big winners with extremely severe oversight in keeping the game fun and putting players in the mood to gamble.

Cheers,
Snowball

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The thing is though, I guess another question I might have then, is why do those who ARE truly 'experienced' (Good) Players, who are sitting at the same table, ALLOW for it to happen or continue then?


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I think this whole problem is not limited to poker.

Why do so many "institutions" require you to go through some initiation-ritual that often are cruel and degrading?
Why do so many people who are treated badly when they first start something say to themselves "One day, it will be ME who treats people like crap!!! Then it will be payback time!!!"

I think, these people hold the opinion they actually have a RIGHT to berate on newbies. They think, because they do whatever they do for so long, they are at the top of the food chain and everyone that is new has to live up to some standards they think they are asked to impose. This is paternalistic thinking. And it is even more rampant when they are actually facing a woman.

And why do the other players do nothing? Because they are cowards? Why do most people just look away when something terrible happens to someone in public? "This is none of my business. It is actually good for me if someone puts someone else on tilt a little. When I do not participate actively, noone can blame me." That's what they think. It takes courage to open the mouth and speak against what seems to be the "public opinion". I guess you could have walked up to anyone who sat at that given table that one night and each and every one of them would have uttered some cheap excuse. I don't even value the reaction of that guy in your other story that much who stood up AFTER the victim left. That isn't strength. That is even worse because what he says misses the social tragedy that just happend by far! The correct response to him would have been "it's too late now, coward. And that goes for all of you here! you are pathetic." He was doing a marginally right thing for the complete wrong reason.

Regards,

Genz

CincyLady,

First let me say that I think what happened to you is terrible - I can't stand when people berate others at the poker table - it is bad form.

I will also say that I think some of the other posters here are right in that the player or players who were berating you were probably NOT good players - perhaps experienced, but not good players. A good player would NEVER berate you like that - they WANT you making mistakes so that they can take advantage of them.

Having said that - and I am going to say this with all due respect - looking back on your experience, can you see where your own fault lies in this incident? Or, put another way, can you see that this incident may have, in fact, been of tremendous benefit to you?

I am guessing that this was the last time you ever left a poker room crying and clutching your chips - correct? Moreover, I am pretty sure that this incident toughened you up tremendously and has probably made you a better player.

I had a similar experience early on - my first B&M game was at Commerce Casino and I was berated quite a bit as well - and I let it affect me and I made some stupid plays - I honestly didn't know much about the game at the time and I got killed. But as I walked out of there, I vowed that I would never be taken advantage of like that again - and I never was.

So many players will go to the tables and lose repeatedly, all the time thinking that they are simply a victim of bad luck or some such thing - you were told, point-blank, that you sucked.

For that, you should be tremendously thankful.