1010 in a tough river spot

[flawless_victory]

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we are going to talk about it... not raising in te described situation is horrible.. you are just giving away that free money

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HPFAP says you shouldn't raise preflop if you think you will be against 3 or 4 opponents with TT or JJ. Limping is not horrible. Arguable? Maybe.

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HPFAPBLAHBLAHBLAH

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we are going to talk about it... not raising in te described situation is horrible.. you are just giving away that free money

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HPFAP says you shouldn't raise preflop if you think you will be against 3 or 4 opponents with TT or JJ. Limping is not horrible. Arguable? Maybe.

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HPFAPBLAHBLAHBLAH

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Sorry, but I'll take the advice of that book over anything posted on here. If you simply dimiss it like this, I'll certainly take its advice over anything you post.

And Bernie, I take a big chance that the flop is checked through if I raise and check preflop. And I run the risk of simply being chased if I raise preflop and bet out, because I have made it correct for virtually any draw to chase. My goal was to win this pot, this hand, and not raising preflop was the best way to do that.

I've already explained why the pf raise was suboptimal, imho. I don't care if anyone disagrees, unless they have some awesome reasoning I have not yet thought about. I don't think they do though, and your argument isn't anything I hadn't considered. I don't think it's persuasive given this particular situation, and frankly all of the pro-raise arguments so far smack of ABC-limited thinking to me (raise simply because you have a good hand and your opponents are bad).

[bernie]

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And Bernie, I take a big chance that the flop is checked through if I raise and check preflop.

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Not if your description of the button is correct. "Super aggros" tend to bet whenever checked to. It's what they do and one big reason you can take advantage of them when you have position on them.

Maybe when you get to the section of HEPFAP around p 170 you'll see something different as far as postflop play in some big pots. Or even the overpair section in SSHE may give you some ideas. (especially the TT overpair hand) You think these ideas are new? They've been hashed out point by point long ago.

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My goal was to win this pot, this hand,

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You're goal shouldn't be just to win a pot, but to win a quality pot. Poker isn't about just winning pots. There's a whole 3 limpers. You're really that concerned with a small 4sb pot?

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and frankly all of the pro-raise arguments so far smack of ABC-limited thinking to me (raise simply because you have a good hand and your opponents are bad).

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Actually, this situation really is that simple. Especially given your description of the players.

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I've already explained why the pf raise was suboptimal, imho.

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Yes, much to the dissatisfaction of many quality players on here.

b

Preflop: I thought your reasoning for not raising TT was very sound. You set up a nice flop checkraise and you executed. The only thing thats worth mentioning is would the button bet the flop if checked to if you did raise preflop and checked the flop? If this is so, then I like raising better than calling, but I certainly have no qualms with the way you played your hand and I too would make this play with TT or JJ agaisnt specifically 3 limpers. Against 2 limpers I would raise every time, and against 4 or more limpers I would raise every time for its set value, but against specifically 3 limpers and an aggressive late position player, I think calling with JJ or TT is an excellent play in my opinion, but if I felt that I could still pull off the checkraise postflop even if I did raise preflop I would go ahead and raise. About the river, this is a tough spot, and against most opponents this is a fold, but if you view your opponent to be tricky or just stupid this is an easy call given the pot odds.

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And Bernie, I take a big chance that the flop is checked through if I raise and check preflop.

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Not if your description of the button is correct. "Super aggros" tend to bet whenever checked to. It's what they do and one big reason you can take advantage of them when you have position on them.

Maybe when you get to the section of HEPFAP around p 170 you'll see something different as far as postflop play in some big pots. Or even the overpair section in SSHE may give you some ideas. (especially the TT overpair hand) You think these ideas are new? They've been hashed out point by point long ago.

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My goal was to win this pot, this hand,

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You're goal shouldn't be just to win a pot, but to win a quality pot. Poker isn't about just winning pots. There's a whole 3 limpers. You're really that concerned with a small 4sb pot?

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and frankly all of the pro-raise arguments so far smack of ABC-limited thinking to me (raise simply because you have a good hand and your opponents are bad).

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Actually, this situation really is that simple. Especially given your description of the players.

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I've already explained why the pf raise was suboptimal, imho.

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Yes, much to the dissatisfaction of many quality players on here.

b

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I think you're wrong and I have explained why, but you won't give up, so I will.

[MCS]

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People use the word "horrible" and its synonyms WAY too much around here...I wish I could get some advice on here just once without the hyperbole. It's as though people are so worried about having their opinions accepted that they overstate them to try to cut off arguments from the beginning.

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While I agree, you just used the word "dreadful" in Josh W's 30/60 AK thread to describe a play that I think Josh explained pretty well.

What's the difference?

[MCS]

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I don't really need to think any further.

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Why not? There are some good players disagreeing with you.

You ALWAYS need to think more.

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People use the word "horrible" and its synonyms WAY too much around here...I wish I could get some advice on here just once without the hyperbole. It's as though people are so worried about having their opinions accepted that they overstate them to try to cut off arguments from the beginning.

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While I agree, you just used the word "dreadful" in Josh W's 30/60 AK thread to describe a play that I think Josh explained pretty well.

What's the difference?

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I think not calling that river was dreadful. It was, imho, a highly -EV play, and was moreover a very, very easy decision. Those two things combined make it dreadful.

Just out of curiosity, do you always go back 3 pages to find posts that you hope to embarrass people with to win arguments on this board? Or is this just a special case? Because either way it's kind of pathetic, man.

[MCS]

It's kind of a special case. I have a good memory, and I had responded in that other thread right before you did. So not only was it was on my mind, but right after I saw your response, I read this thread, and thought, "Hmmm. Seems like the same thing."

I mean, you're dismissive of intelligent players saying "River fold is close" on the other thread because you think it's dreadful. Yet when people say "Not raising TT in the SB is horrible" you claim that it can't be horrible and everyone is just exaggerating to make a point. I don't think they are; I think a lot of people really think you're missing significant value by completing TT.

For the record, I think you should raise the TT and I also think Josh should call, but I don't think his error is much worse than yours.

I don't know what you're talking about with the "3 pages" thing. If this thread was three pages back, I didn't realize it. I probably found it because I wanted to see what that guy was talking about when he mentioned your not raising TT from the SB, since IMO that is often a very standard play.

[rory]

every single good poster in this forum has digested HPFAP and moved past it. you're better off listening to the posters than that book.