Taking The Opposite Side (kinda long?) - Page 3

amoeba · #21 11-03-2005, 05:44 PM

your reasons for pushing the flop in hand 2 is just silly.

think about what you are saying.

by your logic, why wouldn't I push QQ/AK preflop?

you do realize the vast amount of time villain does not even have a draw and rarely a combo draw.

don't worry about handing over reigns or being out of control or not knowing where you are. your goal is to make money. open pushing the flop with an overpair at these stack sizes does not achieve this goal. you are sacrificing EV to make your decision easier but I think with this move, you sacrifice too much.

mayesie · #22 11-04-2005, 03:52 PM

Hello Kane / GrunchCan / All,
I'd like to keep this post alive by discussing the strategy used by the "Biggest Online Winner (BOW)", as described in Phil Gordon's Little Green Book. For those who haven't read the book, here's a brief description of the BOW strategy used in NL Cash Games (as referenced in the book on pp 246):

1. Get in the pot cheaply

2. Massively overbet with some premium draws

3. Massively overbet with the nuts or the best hand

Here's an example (also referenced from the book on pp 246):

After the flop the pot is 500.00
BOW has 5,000.00
I have 5,000.00 and Ac Kd
The flop comes down: Ah 7s 6s
BOW moves all-in

Here are the specifics I'd like to discuss:

1) Has anyone used this strategy? If so, what's your opinion of it? If not, feel free
to give your opinion.

2) Overall, does anyone believe this strategy to be more effective at some limits,
while being less effective at others?

3) Do you believe this strategy to be effective w/ a standard buy-in of 100 BB?

4) If one is utilizing this strategy, is it correct to go all-in everytime he / she
flops a strong draw, or flops the nuts? This question assumes that no adjustments have yet
been made by the opponents to effectively counter this strategy.

5) Is this strategy also used with a less spectacular holding (Overpair or Top Pair / Strong
Kicker, for example), if believed to still be the best hand?

6) How does this strategy effect the frequency of making pure-bluffs?

7) For the purpose of using this strategy, could a clean 8-out draw be considered "Premium" on the flop? I think that the combination of Fold
Equity & the Odds of making your hand make this a profitable play.

I decided to address this under this post because it coincides (to some extent). One could argue this belongs under Books / Publications, but I think it fits nicely here. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

BR,
mayesie

GrunchCan · #23 11-04-2005, 04:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you do realize the vast amount of time villain does not even have a draw and rarely a combo draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but in those cases, he won't call $23, or even $2.30, either. So the case where the opponent has air is a non-entity as well, becasue all possible plays against his air have an EV of exactly zero.

[ QUOTE ]
don't worry about handing over reigns or being out of control or not knowing where you are. your goal is to make money. open pushing the flop with an overpair at these stack sizes does not achieve this goal. you are sacrificing EV to make your decision easier but I think with this move, you sacrifice too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, fair enough. What does achieve my goal? Pot-sized bet? That doesn't protect me against the about-to-push big draw. In fact, what hand is this +EV against. That is, what hand that would continue postflop. Why is PSB the best play?

If I'm not concerned about giving up control, why not check the flop & try to keep it cheap?

I'm being a bit of a Devil's advocate here, but I think this hand (hand #2) is fairly difficult, fairly common, and involves a lot of pretty key concepts.

amoeba · #24 11-04-2005, 05:39 PM

long story short, if you are going to push, then it would make sense to bet then get raised all in by the combo draw and you make the clal right?

so you should bet as much as a worse hand will call you while still making odds for drawing to the next card (just the turn) incorrect.

amoeba · #25 11-04-2005, 05:42 PM

also, if you are pushing overpairs, then I hope you are pushing missed overs too because otherwise your AK, AQ, AJs are going to go down in EV significantly.

GrunchCan · #26 11-04-2005, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
long story short, if you are going to push, then it would make sense to bet then get raised all in by the combo draw and you make the clal right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think that follows.

When I open-push, I want the opponent to fold. When I either check & callin or bet & callin, I want to double up. Not the same at all. I'd need a much stronger hand to call than to bet.

amoeba · #27 11-04-2005, 05:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
long story short, if you are going to push, then it would make sense to bet then get raised all in by the combo draw and you make the clal right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think that follows.

When I open-push, I want the opponent to fold. When I either check & callin or bet & callin, I want to double up. Not the same at all. I'd need a much stronger hand to call than to bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you saying combo draws fold to your push on that board?

I don't think they do. What I'm saying is that you don't get any additional fold equity against combo draws but you lose value from weaker made hands.

GrunchCan · #28 11-04-2005, 06:00 PM

Ok, I'm with you.

I'm still trying to figure out how to play this hand, tho.

One the one hand, if I just check or pot and the opponent pushes his draw, I'm in a difficult spot. It's difficult becasue I have a hand that wants to see a showdown, but a cheap one. I'm being asked to back it with my stack. On the other hand, I have the best hand here frequently, so I shouldn't have to worry about equity, becasue I have the edge.

So I guess I should pot the flop & then play poker. The 'play poker' is hard for the reasons I mentioned. But by reasoning it out here, it makes it somewhat easier.

TheWorstPlayer · #29 11-04-2005, 06:03 PM

Yes, the idea is that you should be betting large enough for normal draws to have incorrect odds and small enough for worse made hands to call very incorrectly. If you face resistance, you have to deduce a hand range for that particular aggressor and then determine whether you have odds to call against that hand range or not. That is it.

amoeba · #30 11-04-2005, 06:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'm with you.

I'm still trying to figure out how to play this hand, tho.

One the one hand, if I just check or pot and the opponent pushes his draw, I'm in a difficult spot. It's difficult becasue I have a hand that wants to see a showdown, but a cheap one. I'm being asked to back it with my stack. On the other hand, I have the best hand here frequently, so I shouldn't have to worry about equity, becasue I have the edge.

So I guess I should pot the flop & then play poker. The 'play poker' is hard for the reasons I mentioned. But by reasoning it out here, it makes it somewhat easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

you have to figure out a frequency that he is raising with here.

if he is only raising you on the flop with combo draw and 2pair plus, then count yourself lucky and just fold all overpairs and make your money from continuation bets. unless if you mean he calls with say TT but raises with combo draws and 2 pair plus, then its a bit tricky. and it gets trickier if he smoothcall sets on drawless boards.