I cost myself this hand - Page 3

tiltaholic · #21 11-03-2005, 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and didn't realize it until checking some hands in PT.
I think this is a leak, but don't know how big. I'd like opinions on possible holding for villian (and how likely), and where I screwed up.

Only seen villian play a few hands, not done anything terrible yet. Assume typical for the site/stakes.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

River: (8.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

you are too results oriented.

lead the turn, try to 3-bet.

Koss · #22 11-03-2005, 02:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]

By trap i mean that he is faced with 2 bets cold and has to fold. It seems that everyone else is in favour of keeping UTG+2 in the hand so my logic must be off on this one, i assume the consensus is that we have a strong enough hand to just value bet as opposed to trying to protect?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a pair + flush draw. It will improve to 2 pair or better half the time. Our equity could be as high as 50% right now so getting the most money in as possible is the way to go. The only hands we really want to "protect" against are hands that have us dominated. The check/raise is only a good idea if UTG+2 has something like AT or KJ. I'm willing to take my chances and try to keep him in the pot.

DRD66 · #23 11-03-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you are too results oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I am. I see this said a lot lately, always like it's a bad thing. How can you NOT be "results oriented". This hand bugged me 'cause I lost it. I was looking through PT at big pots from that session and found this hand. The results compelled me to look at it again. And helped me find the mistake I mentioned above.

Let me clear something up: I didn't post this hand because I lost it. In fact, I doubt there was any way to win it, as many have noted. I posted it because I played it badly, and I don't like to play badly. Mistakes cost money.

[ QUOTE ]
Comments on finding and fixing late game leaks appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

bozlax · #24 11-03-2005, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
By trap i mean that he is faced with 2 bets cold and has to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by trap you mean "push out." Got it! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems that everyone else is in favour of keeping UTG+2 in the hand so my logic must be off on this one, i assume the consensus is that we have a strong enough hand to just value bet as opposed to trying to protect?

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you protecting, here, against a PFR? You've got MPWK on a board where even AQ is going to have odds to peel.

McGahee · #25 11-03-2005, 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and didn't realize it until checking some hands in PT.
I think this is a leak, but don't know how big. I'd like opinions on possible holding for villian (and how likely), and where I screwed up.

Only seen villian play a few hands, not done anything terrible yet. Assume typical for the site/stakes.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

River: (8.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure where you cost yourself the hand. I'd say the biggest screwup was PF. You'd like at least 1 more limper.
Flop is fine.
Turn shouldn't be standard, but might be ok with a read.
River is ok given turn action.
Looks like villian was waiting to raise the turn w/ top 2 but got scared of your C/R and filled up on the river.

deception5 · #26 11-03-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree he's not folding, but do think I should have lead the turn. I replayed the hand in PT with the pot odds window on (been finding that helpful lately). If I had bet into the turn, he'd need 8 outs to call. This makes a set an iffy call

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct, but only if he knows he's beaten. Because poker is a game of incomplete information, when you lead the flop and turn into him when he has 2-pair or a set, there is a very good chance that he still has the best hand against your range of hands.

Your opponent should not think "my opponent has a flush now so I should go ahead and fold my 2-pair or set" (this would be a huge mistake on his part) but rather something like:

[ QUOTE ]
it's possible my opponent has a flush, but also possible he's value betting a pair, an overpair, 2-pair, or a set here. He may also have a pair which just improved to a pair+flush draw like A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Tx or a pocket pair with one [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He may even be bet/folding a hand like ATo which was tptk on the flop but now may be behind Kx or a flush. Either way there's no way I can lay this down yet and most likely I'm going to need to take this to showdown heads up because my hand is just too strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

deception5 · #27 11-03-2005, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you are too results oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I am. I see this said a lot lately, always like it's a bad thing. How can you NOT be "results oriented". This hand bugged me 'cause I lost it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say I have AA preflop. I raise, the BB a loose-passive player calls. Flop is K83 rainbow. I bet he calls. Turn is a 7. I bet he calls. River is a 2. I bet he calls. He flops over KK and takes down the pot.

Saying I should have check/folded the turn or river is incredibly results-oriented as regardless of the outcome I'm giving up way too much value against the range of hands my opponent could have had here.

Whether I win or lose this hand there's no way to say I played it wrong and this is a perfect example of why the results of the actual hand in question don't matter. One time I lose to KK, the next 5 times this situation occurs he calls me down with a pocket pair, 8x, etc and I make it all back and then some.

Obliky · #28 11-03-2005, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By trap i mean that he is faced with 2 bets cold and has to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by trap you mean "push out." Got it! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes i used the wrong terminology and apologise profusely from the bottom of my wrong terminology using heart [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]

What are you protecting, here, against a PFR? You've got MPWK on a board where even AQ is going to have odds to peel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that protecting against the PFR isnt going to happen..my point was that by check-raising we push-out UTG+2 and any overcards he may have. However, seeing as the pot is resonably small and we have a pretty strong hand i admit it seems like a better idea to just bet out.

tiltaholic · #29 11-03-2005, 03:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I am. I see this said a lot lately, always like it's a bad thing. How can you NOT be "results oriented".

[/ QUOTE ]

it is a bad thing for learning how to play better poker.
in fact, it might be the worst thing.
learning to not be results-oriented is probably the hardest thing to do in poker.

the reason is because many times one can play perfectly in a hand and lose. often times, the correct course of action in a hand is to call a bet or call a raise when we know we are going to lose 90% of the time. poker is hard, in part, because it is so hard for people to dissociate "correct play" from "plays where we ended up losing a particular hand".

the flip side of this can also work to our advantage. people who play incorrectly can win, sometimes a lot of money, and they'll continue to play 'their-way' -- thereby making the games profitable.

looking at a hand from the point of view of "what could i have done to win this particular hand" is an incorrect thought process oftentimes and should be avoided. in this case, the correct course of action was to bet the turn (as you know), but not because it would have helped you win the hand (as you know).

try reviewing hands in which you won a lot of money as well as the ones where you lost. often that is where i find my most glaring errors.

all of this is not to say that losing $ doesn't suck...

bozlax · #30 11-03-2005, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that protecting against the PFR isnt going to happen..my point was that by check-raising we push-out UTG+2 and any overcards he may have. However, seeing as the pot is resonably small and we have a pretty strong hand i admit it seems like a better idea to just bet out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah...especially since you're unlikely to win the hand if you don't improve, probably to a flush, you want UTG+2 to stay in and pad the pot for when you hit. Your only concern is that he's drawing to a better flush, but if he is you're not pushing him out anyway.