How would you play these rivers and what do you put your opponent on?

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I believe I made that point that if he can push with a worse hand I will not raise. But there are plenty of worse hands that he can call with getting 3:1 on his money or whatever it is if you push the river.

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I'm assuming you meant there are plenty of worse hands villain can have that hero can call here getting 3:1 to call villain's 3 bet push? Sure, but there are also plenty of better hands with the 3rd heart on the board, and the only way you are justifying a call on a 3-bet here is because the stacks are short and you have priced yourself in after raising, as you said you would raise and fold to a reraise if stacks were bigger. I certainly believe he would be capable of doing this with a worse hand with a bigger stack, especially if he was tilting, so you wouldn't be raising with him having a bigger stack, unless you didn't believe this, which I don't see why you wouldn't. Many arguements can be made for why pricing yourself into an immediate +EV situation in the sphere of an overall -EV situation is fundamentally wrong. I definatly don't mean to sound condescending, as I think this is a good discussion.

[TheWorstPlayer]

My point is that the raise, with no possibility of a re-raise bluff, is +EV in and of itself. The -EV associated with a re-raise bluff is huge and therefore if that were a possibility I would not take the +EV of raising since it would be outweighed by the -EV of folding the winner or opening myself up to a big push that I call with the loser. In this case, however, the stacks are short so you can push and get the +EV of the raise without the -EV of any potential re-raise. Just push.

After his 12 bet, the pot would be about 38, and you would effectively be making it 80 more for him by pushing, total of 92, making the pot 130. Thats 1.6 : 1 on his money to call. What calling range do you give him for when you are ahead to make this call? It doesn't seem like this push would come out to being +EV with the third heart on the board, as the calling range for when he is ahead is much broader, especially considering 1 king left in the deck when adding up actual card combinations you are ahead of.

Is this 6max or full ring? Sorry if I missed it somewhere but I reread the OP a few times and couldn't find it. From the way it was worded sounds like full ring so the rest of this post is assuming full ring:

What hand would villain have here if you're saying worse trips? He was UTG.

Limp UTG with this action to me looks like:
AK, KQ, maybe KJs, 77. Have to assume he's not a donk or the hand analysis is worthless. Betting 80% pot with a flush draw out of position with 1 card to come = no.

[Poker Jon]

Hi All,

Top - This is a full ring game. If 6-handed I would have called like a shot!

Interesting discussion on this point.

I think the point on Hand 2 here is that I played the hand terribly here.

My opponent was tilting, so I didnt think about the possibility of a reraise on the river - I was concentrating solely on getting him to call another $12. The other point to make here, I think for future reference, is to not min raise the river, without a hand that is worth calling an all in with. Otherwise you are opening up a lot of possibilities of being pushed off the hand.

In my defence, i felt my opponent played the hand very well.

FWIW, I put him on a small PP, giving him the boat.

Thanks for all analysis!

Jon

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I believe I made that point that if he can push with a worse hand I will not raise. But there are plenty of worse hands that he can call with getting 3:1 on his money or whatever it is if you push the river.

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I'm confused as to where you got 3:1, as its no where near that... Pushing here seems pretty bad the more I look at it. Am I missing something?

[TheWorstPlayer]

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I believe I made that point that if he can push with a worse hand I will not raise. But there are plenty of worse hands that he can call with getting 3:1 on his money or whatever it is if you push the river.

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I'm confused as to where you got 3:1, as its no where near that... Pushing here seems pretty bad the more I look at it. Am I missing something?

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I didn't remember the numbers. I think you're just missing the fact that people will make VERY loose calls in these games.

Here's a recent example:

$400 NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, October 29, 16:27:41 EDT 2005
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: x( $899.79 )
Seat 4: TWP( $877.60 )
Seat 5: x( $283.40 )
Seat 6: x( $95.50 )
Seat 3: Villain( $343.30 )
Seat 1: x( $400 )
Villain posts small blind [$2].
TWP posts big blind [$4].
x is sitting out.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to TWP [ Td Tc ]
x calls [$4].
x calls [$4].
x folds.
Villain raises [$18].
TWP raises [$66].
x folds.
x folds.
Villain calls [$50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, 3s, 4h ]
Villain checks.
TWP bets [$100].
Villain calls [$100].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6c ]
Villain checks.
TWP is all-In.
Villain is all-In.
** Dealing River ** [ 5c ]
Villain shows [ Kd, Ah ] a pair of fives.
TWP shows [ Td, Tc ] two pairs, tens and fives.
TWP wins $534.30 from side pot #1 with two pairs, tens and fives.
TWP wins $692.60 from the main pot with two pairs, tens and fives.

Maybe it's not the best example. But it is a similar situation in that he can't possibly beat any real hand but he simply does not believe that I have ANYTHING. And he calls off his whole stack with no hope of being ahead and with no odds to draw out (if he is even drawing live which it is quite possible that he is not).

People certainly can, but people also tend to be overly scared of 3-flush boards at these limits. Like I said, I definatly like a raise if the king wasn't also the third heart.