Hand I think I played well

[JTG51]

In fact, I felt the hand would be 3-4 way regardless of if I raised or not.

You say 34% of the table was seeing each flop, so on average 3 or 4 players were seeing each flop. So then, how can you also expect 3 or 4 players to see the flop after 5 have already folded and you raise one limper? That doesn't seem quite right to me.

So the raise is a bad move in this spot. Even if just one player calls after me and I'm in with 55 I'm in deep trouble 3-way and -EV on the play.

If you admit that seeing the flop 3 handed is "deep trouble", then why would you limp when you expect 3 or 4 to see the lfop? I know it's going to cost you one less small bet by limping (hopefully), but if it's a bad hand 3 or 4 ways, it's a bad hand 3 or 4 ways.

If I'm going to see a flop in an unfavorable situation, I'd rather see it with the momentum of being the aggressor.

[Vehn]

You people are screwed up. Just giving up here with "3rd pair" here is giving up too much. The flop almost certainly didn't help a preflop raiser and there's more than a good chance that you have the best hand with two "small overcards". Its crucial you bet this flop. How many times have you read in books and on this board to not check to preflop raisers in multiway pots? If you're going to call a bet here find a bet yourself. If not check and fold.

I agree with your assessment of preflop play and don't think it matters much either way if you raise or fold based on table conditions. You'd know better than us, you were at the table.

I hate your river bet. There is no value to it. A better hand will call every time with the possible exceptions of 77 & 66 specifically - but they'll probably still call. A worse hand will almost always fold. Do you really think AK is going to call a river bet here after your "surprise" show of strength on the turn? Doubtful. Check it down.

Grow a pair people sheesh. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[JTG51]

I haven't said anything about the flop play, but I agree with you. I think betting is MUCH better than checking and calling.

[MRBAA]

Mr. Biggs was perhaps a touch rude. But I agree with his points. I think limping is fine in the cut off, bad luck getting raised behind. But "no set, no bet" with a small pocket pair is the rule of thumb, especially when you aren't head up. I think your play from the flop on has significant negative expectation over time.

Full disclosure: Biggs is a friend and a very solid low limit he player (I've sat with him on several occasions).

[MRBAA]

Vehn, think back to low limits and players who play many hands and make MANY more calling errors than folding errors. They will (and did) call you to the river with any hope at all. You will rarely be able to win uncalled. Given that there are three other players, and he only has fives, do you still think a flop bet in this type of game (where there is little semi-bluff value) is worthwhile?

[Homer]

It's better than check-calling but still not worthwhile. There are times to bet bottom/third pair but this isn't one of them.

-- Homer

[SoBeDude]

6/45 times he will win the pot and you will lose 1 small bet.
39/45 times you will win the pot and will win 9 small bets.

Seems like you're arguing for my bet now.

Also I'm not head's up. this means its possible that the bet is correct for me, AND the call is correct for him.

-Scott

[John Biggs]

Didn't mean to attack you personally; sorry it came off that way. I've seen your posts before, so you're obviously serious about the game. My comments apply only to the play of the hand, which I still question. But I'd be happy to hear your rebuttal, and would be pleased if I learned something from it.

[SoBeDude]

If you admit that seeing the flop 3 handed is "deep trouble", then why would you limp when you expect 3 or 4 to see the lfop? I know it's going to cost you one less small bet by limping (hopefully), but if it's a bad hand 3 or 4 ways, it's a bad hand 3 or 4 ways.

3- way with 55 when I paid two bets to play is horrible.

Clearly there is a difference between 3-way for one bet versus two bets? Also remember that by not betting you encourage loose callers to call, thereby increasing the chance for it to be Four way.

-Scott

[Homer]

You said

"I'm not sure I want to push him off his overcards. I'm happy to let him call. I have him beat. The chance of him hitting a pair after the flop are quite low. So I'm getting the best of him if he calls me. I do want the others to fold though as I'm having trouble putting them on a hand."

I said

No, you want him to fold to a flop bet because from his perspective it is correct to call. Btw, here's some math to back it up....

You said

(Quoting me)
"6/45 times he will win the pot and you will lose 1 small bet.
39/45 times you will win the pot and will win 9 small bets."

(You)
Seems like you're arguing for my bet now.

I say

My argument had nothing to do with whether you should bet the flop or not. It had to do with whether you would like your opponent, who you assume to be on overcards, to call. I'm not sure why you're quoting my math in your response. How does this make it seem like I'm arguing that you should bet? I'm simply stating that you want your opponent to fold. You aren't getting the best of him if he calls. You'd like him to fold immediately.

-- Homer