I just got tabled coached (angry, but there's content!)

[imitation]

TAGS will CR this board with almost anything that connects, because you will be expected to bet such a raggy flop like 100% of the time.

TAGs who can donk mid pairs will also donk with TP and sets hoping to 3-bet.

But you won the hand so your play was obviously correct i'm wrong, sorry my bad i'll just continue to let this forum dribble out the garbage that constitutes 90% of the posts and hands I see day in day out.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
you dont think a pair of queens is good enough to c/r here? because i do it every time. its gotta be hugely +EV compared to betting ( i mean, come on, 1-2BBs instead of .5-1BB gained)

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I may not have been clear in my post - I think a pair of Q's is absolutely good enough to c/r here.

Villain, however, won't want to c/r with mid or bottom pair (or a baby PP) because noone ever folds to the second bet after putting in 1 and all he's doing is tying himself to the pot with a poor holding, without any hand protection. IMO he'll donk the mediocre and weakest of his holdings in an effort to use your aggression against you and get it HU, and usually c/r a Q. IMO donking a Q is a poor play.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

Hey imitation,

I don't think baron's play was necessarily correct - I'd want a stronger overcard-type holding like KJ or AJ that is less likely to be reverse dominated; the pot odds are thin.

However, would you check-raise 45s on this board, allowing BB in and likely bloating a pot without protecting your hand? What would that accomplish? The bet-3bet concern is valid, but it's a risky move because most times it will go bet-call-call or bet-fold-call or bet-fold-fold whereas he gets a nearly guaranteed bet from baron when he c/r's, plus trapping the BB for 2 if he wants to play.

HU is when we should be worrying more about a TAG mixing up his play, imo. In MW pots he'll be focusing on hand protection/maximizing EV and it's important to consider what he is trying to accomplish.

I shouldn't be saying any of this [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Surf

[imitation]

This board is so [censored] rough that protecting your hand is not very important for BB, personally if I had mid pair against a TAG I would check, looking to either fold if action goes TAG bet, SB CR, or if SB calls I will mix CR with calling and deciding the turn after, or if SB folds probably CR like 90% of the time (with any hand really, this means I can also bluff CR naked sometimes because it matches the patterns for all my strong hands thru to weak hands and draws).

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey imitation,

I don't think baron's play was necessarily correct - I'd want a stronger overcard-type holding like KJ or AJ that is less likely to be reverse dominated; the pot odds are thin.

However, would you check-raise 45s on this board, allowing BB in and likely bloating a pot without protecting your hand? What would that accomplish? The bet-3bet concern is valid, but it's a risky move because most times it will go bet-call-call or bet-fold-call or bet-fold-fold whereas he gets a nearly guaranteed bet from baron when he c/r's, plus trapping the BB for 2 if he wants to play.

HU is when we should be worrying more about a TAG mixing up his play, imo. In MW pots he'll be focusing on hand protection/maximizing EV and it's important to consider what he is trying to accomplish.

I shouldn't be saying any of this [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Surf

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surf, i was in the middle of typing the same post. you rule.

[imitation]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey imitation,

I don't think baron's play was necessarily correct - I'd want a stronger overcard-type holding like KJ or AJ that is less likely to be reverse dominated; the pot odds are thin.

However, would you check-raise 45s on this board, allowing BB in and likely bloating a pot without protecting your hand? What would that accomplish? The bet-3bet concern is valid, but it's a risky move because most times it will go bet-call-call or bet-fold-call or bet-fold-fold whereas he gets a nearly guaranteed bet from baron when he c/r's, plus trapping the BB for 2 if he wants to play.

HU is when we should be worrying more about a TAG mixing up his play, imo. In MW pots he'll be focusing on hand protection/maximizing EV and it's important to consider what he is trying to accomplish.

I shouldn't be saying any of this [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

surf your points are valid, but re my lsat post, you are not terribly worried about protection on this board are you, and imo if you bloat the pot it's just so that baron will justify calling down with A-h. We have no read on SB, but and SB call also gives us information about his hand, imo a SB call often has Qs, so a donk actually says a little more strength because I think SB is often looking to CR the flop (perhaps he thinks he's protecting his hand and getting you out).

Anyway just some musings.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]

surf your points are valid, but re my lsat post, you are not terribly worried about protection on this board are you, and imo if you bloat the pot it's just so that baron will justify calling down with A-h. We have no read on SB, but and SB call also gives us information about his hand, imo a SB call often has Qs, so a donk actually says a little more strength because I think SB is often looking to CR the flop (perhaps he thinks he's protecting his hand and getting you out).

Anyway just some musings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the more I read the flop the less I think of the call. The spirit of it is great, but this spot is very poor. SB may often be going for the c/r, and CCing hands like connectors hit this board relatively often (QJ/QTs, 87/76/65/54). If baron were closing the action he might be able to get away with it.

Surf

[The Truth]

One thing I really dont like about just calling this flop is that the SB is still to act behind you. I would like to see your hand a notch better or 2 better to make this call for this specific reason.


blake

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

surf your points are valid, but re my lsat post, you are not terribly worried about protection on this board are you, and imo if you bloat the pot it's just so that baron will justify calling down with A-h. We have no read on SB, but and SB call also gives us information about his hand, imo a SB call often has Qs, so a donk actually says a little more strength because I think SB is often looking to CR the flop (perhaps he thinks he's protecting his hand and getting you out).

Anyway just some musings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the more I read the flop the less I think of the call. The spirit of it is great, but this spot is very poor. SB may often be going for the c/r, and CCing hands like connectors hit this board relatively often (QJ/QTs, 87/76/65/54). If baron were closing the action he might be able to get away with it.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

well regardless, i dont think its VERY -EV...it may be even EV, or slightly +EV, or slightly -EV. who knows. i make a ton of read based plays in my play every day and i think we need to as poker players. maybe this wasnt the right spot but it helped affirm my read and i got him to spew like a madman in the meantime.

[baronzeus]

FWIW, shut the hell up at the tables.

ps, joeyjoejoejoejoejoejoe, thanks for the extra $80 on the river. ill buy my friends some nice booze this weekend with your money.