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#23
10-16-2005, 06:44 PM
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Re: AKs, monotone board, vs. 2+2er
[ QUOTE ]
Wow. Just found this thread. I think my preflop call is pretty standard. Getting great odds in position, I don't find many folds. [/ QUOTE ] Hmm. This may be the nugget of gold in this whole thread for me (I also agree a river bet-fold is pretty standard given that I know who the bettor is). But this thing about calling raises with J8o from the post is interesting. I make this call easily with JTo, but would routinely fold J9o. Can the distinction really be that clear? Probably not. But I think J7o is a definite fold, yes? A better question would be, what's the weakest hand you defend your post with in this same situation? I wouldn't classify your odds as "great" personally. You're getting 4.5:1 to defend, but have a hand that will suffer from RIO a lot of the time. I'm not sure. If the same player raises in the same place and it folds to the SB who calls, do you defend your BB J8o getting 5.5:1? I don't. Am I too tight in my blinds? 
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#24
10-16-2005, 07:07 PM
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Re: AKs, monotone board, vs. 2+2er
[ QUOTE ]
But this thing about calling raises with J8o from the post is interesting. I make this call easily with JTo, but would routinely fold J9o. Can the distinction really be that clear? Probably not. But I think J7o is a definite fold, yes? [/ QUOTE ] I don't necessarily think it's a definite fold, no. Folding can't be that wrong. [ QUOTE ] A better question would be, what's the weakest hand you defend your post with in this same situation? [/ QUOTE ] I dunno. I probably fold J6o. I call with unsuited connectors maybe as low as 65o. I don't have any chart or anything though...it's a situation that comes up pretty rarely...and the amount of ev that you win or lose in spots like this is pretty minimal. [ QUOTE ] I wouldn't classify your odds as "great" personally. You're getting 4.5:1 to defend, but have a hand that will suffer from RIO a lot of the time. [/ QUOTE ] Reverse implied odds are significantly mitigated by the fact that we have position. Think about how the hand will play out postflop in position as opposed to from the bb. Will
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#25
10-16-2005, 07:07 PM
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Re: AKs, monotone board, vs. 2+2er
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Checking allows him to play the river perfectly. [/ QUOTE ] So are you assuming that a 2p2er would only bet here with a spade? [/ QUOTE ] no, I think will only bets this river with a spade, *maybe* a set, but any of the hands that he'd have a set with on the flop he'd have three bet PF, so I think a spade is his holding if he bets [ QUOTE ] This brings me to another question: Will is a solid poster here, so are people always defending their CO posts to a raise with hands like J8o? I wouldn't mind hearing people list their chart of what they call with and what they fold. [/ QUOTE ] now this is an interesting question. As with anything in poker, it depends. Genreally, I'll call with any two suited. I'm not a fan of defending here with off suit gaps. I'd probably defend with 109o. I have a big disdain for off suit cards like J8o in general. Maybe I'm missing out on some +ev situations, but I don't feel that its a big enough leak to worry about. THough off suit broadways are always cool to defend with here I think If I were Will, I'd definately be chucking this if he has any sort of decent amount of stats on you(if you are still using the same sn that I have stats on). I just don't see what you are raising from MP2 that J8o rates well against for the most part. His holding kinda surprises me cause I've generally thought of will as a solid player, and this call PF is a little loose IMO
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#26
11-07-2005, 03:50 AM
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Re: AKs, monotone board, vs. 2+2er
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river. Since you checked, fold. [/ QUOTE ] sorry to bump this thread, but i am currently rereading TOP, almost done with it, and after getting through the heads up on the end chapter, id just like to say that i now fully understand this concept its not neccessarily that since you checked, you allow him to play the river perfectly, although thats part of it basically you are going to lose money on this last bet no matter what because you are an underdog whether you bet or call, but you will be called by slightly more hands than hands that villain will bet if you check, if you check, villian will not be betting enough hands to make a call profitable given your pot odds, so you must fold, but if you bet, your opponent will call with a hand that you can beat more often than 1 time in 10, you do not make a profit on the bet itsef, for that he needs to call with a hand you beat over half the time, but the pot is offering odds to make this last bet, just not to call a last bet basically you are minimizing the inevitable negative expectation on the last bet, but the positive expectation you get from the pot makes up for it, but would not be enough to make of for the negative expecation if you were to check and call i think this is also part of the concept behind the clarkmeister theory, but that also involves fold equity of better hands
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#28
11-07-2005, 03:56 AM
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Re: AKs, monotone board, vs. 2+2er
yeah, sorry, i just pretty much found someone to quote here, also he was the one who said checking allows him to play the river perfectly
i guess you should be the one to get credit for the being the first one to say it
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#29
11-07-2005, 04:17 AM
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Re: AKs, monotone board, vs. 2+2er
[ QUOTE ]
WTF? I said the same thing 2 hours before Jason and you quoted him?!?!?! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] newhizzle doesn't like people that owned him heads up.
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#30
11-07-2005, 04:42 AM
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Re: AKs, monotone board, vs. 2+2er
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] WTF? I said the same thing 2 hours before Jason and you quoted him?!?!?! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] newhizzle doesn't people that owned him heads up. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Edited by Evan (11/07/05 03:21 AM) [/ QUOTE ] you left out the like evan, and i was drunk anyway, as most probably know, i like you alot better than i like jason, just happened to quote him but keith was right, i dont like short people
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