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#21
10-07-2005, 10:40 AM
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Re: Level 3 - TT - UTG
i would raise pre-flop. the blinds are big enough that winning them is pretty valuable. your hand is strong enough that it's not too bad to call a single push.
i wish the converter labeled the seats button, CO, MP3, MP2, MP1 when there were 7 people. raising here looks a lot more appealing if you don't mention the dreaded "UTG." i like a check on the flop. the villain is not folding to your push very often - pretty much the only hands that will are things like 88, AJ. and as fnord said, this is a pretty scary flop for villain - i think you often get a free card from a hand like AQ or 88. then make a small bet on the turn if it's a blank. i'm surprised some people were saying to open-push pre-flop. that play is rough b/c villains will say (correctly) "hero wouldn't push for 16x if he had AA." so they can narrow your range and call more often. 
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#23
10-07-2005, 01:23 PM
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Re: Level 3 - TT - UTG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I don't want K7 to see a free flop. Raise to 150, call any single push, just like you said. TT is a strong hand, this is your chance to double up not lose 50 chips. If I get called such that I am out of position, I bet any non A non KQ/KJ/QJ flop. [/ QUOTE ] This is interesting. Here's how the rest of the hand played out. Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter Button (t488) SB (t1030) BB (t1855) Hero (t805) MP1 (t972) MP2 (t2205) CO (t645) Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t150, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>. Flop: (t375) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> Hero? <font color="white"> NegEV said the way I played it, this is a push here?? </font> [/ QUOTE ] You are gonna flame my ass but on that flop I'd push way more often than I'd check. Leak of mine? maybe. But here is my thought process on how I'd play the hand: PF, raise 3x or 4x BB - you get one caller. What is he thinking? If he isn't a total donk, he knows you have a hand by raising that much from that position. A hand in this case is JJ-AA or AK. That ugly flop comes and you push = in this case improving your hand and you think hes a calling station. I'll go one further and say he is holding AQ or AJ, in an 11 maybe AT which is trouble but thats life. Plus you've still got some outs. gtr
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#24
10-07-2005, 01:46 PM
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Re: Level 3 - TT - UTG
Well hey!!! This is a situation that I've actually spent a ton of time thinking about. Here is my "right" answer:
Raise to 150 and call nearly any pushes behind you. You still get beat by better hands but you also let lots of worse hands play all-in with you preflop and double you up. Many many people will come over the top with 77 and worse here, or A9, etc. Postflop, I've detailed my general foundations below, but in this specific flop of KQJ I check-fold 100% of the time. You get free cards from hands you beat but from no one else. Folding is bad because you've got a great hand to double up on. Pushing is bad because you still get called by better hands but you make worse hands, hands that will double you up, fold preflop. Calling is bad because by not taking the initiative you open yourself up to all kinds of trouble and you don't have enough chips to play purely for set value. Also, you're missing out on such a great opportunity to double up by calling. Here's a write-up I did for another poker forum about the idea: SNG Concept: 11-15BBs in Level 3 with a decent holding This is a spot that I think I've started to play a lot different than most people, but I'm quite confident that it's a great play, based on my results and the reasoning behind it. You're UTG in a Party 800-chip SNG. It's level 3 (blinds of 25/50) and you have 650 left. There are seven players left. You are dealt AJo. The usual theory here is to either go all-in or fold. Folding is okay because you have six people to go through and you don't really want a call for your whole stack with AJo. Pushing is okay because you do need the chips and your hand is pretty good. I always raise it to 150 and call most reraises in these spots. Here's why: 1) You'll get aggressive players coming over the top of your initial raise with weaker hands like KJ and AT. This puts you in a decent spot to double up that you would have missed with a fold or a push, because KJ and AT will usually fold to a push, but may get tricky if they see a raise in front of them. It happens often enough to be profitable. 2) You can get called by the same dominated hands and see a flop as a favourite. 3) You still go broke to big hands, but you get value out of worse hands. I mean if you raise it to 150 and someone with 800 pushes and you call, you'll see dominating hands somewhat often, but the range I use for this means that I will be the dominating hand more often than dominated. 4) You can still fold to a reraise if it looks fishy or the action gets crazy behind you. This is good because if you push you lose this option. I've included a hand example of this as well. 5) You may win them blinds and you can also fold a better hand preflop. Careful players could muck AQ to your UTG raise. Mostly they won't but it's worth considering a plus. 6) Deception. I think most of us would raise our monsters like this too. I'd pop AA to 150 almost every time UTG, and if my opponents see me do it with AJ then I get more action if I get AA again. This is a smaller plus because it happens so rarely that an opponent may notice that you popped a weaker hand UTG and then decide to give you action based soley on that, but it's worth mentioning. Here is my range of hands that I make this move with. AA-88, AK-AJ. Pretty tight range, so you won't be making this kind of play all the time, nor do I recommend it with any other hand. You don't want to make this play with AT because you'll see AJ+ more than you'll see A8-. Same reason you don't want to do it with 77 because you'll see 88+ more than 66-. Here are some of the downsides: 1) You may have to play a flop out of position heads up. This isn't the end of the world, but it is tricky and requires good judgement and good postflop foundations because playing postflop with 350 in the pot and 500 in your stack is tricky and dangerous and won't be forgiving if you blow it. The good news about playing a flop like this is if you decide it's a good flop to push, you stand the chance of folding a better hand like AK if you have AJ, which you wouldn't have done preflop. Still, it's something to consider before you make this play. If you feel absolutely lost postflop in spots like this it might be best to keep out of trouble and just push/fold. 2) You might get three callers. This sucks but makes the postflop easy. If you hit you push and if you miss you check-fold. 3) You get beat by a better hand preflop. You'd almost certainly get called by a better hand if you pushed anways so not too much harm done. That's why my range is so tight for doing this, so I'm only really losing to hands I would have lost to anyways. Required criteria for making the play In my example I used UTG as the position we're playing from but really, this move is good from any position and is a testament to it's inherent strength that it works UTG as well. The stack size you want for this is about 11-15BBs, and pretty much only in level 3. Level 4 the blinds aren't as valuable if you have 1100-1400 because the next blind increase is smaller and you have a higher percentage of the chips in play. If you only have 600-700 in level 4 then you're push/folding for sure and not ever getting cutesy like this.
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#25
10-07-2005, 02:12 PM
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Re: Level 3 - TT - UTG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I don't want K7 to see a free flop. Raise to 150, call any single push, just like you said. TT is a strong hand, this is your chance to double up not lose 50 chips. If I get called such that I am out of position, I bet any non A non KQ/KJ/QJ flop. [/ QUOTE ] This is interesting. Here's how the rest of the hand played out. Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter Button (t488) SB (t1030) BB (t1855) Hero (t805) MP1 (t972) MP2 (t2205) CO (t645) Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t150, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>. Flop: (t375) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> Hero? <font color="white"> NegEV said the way I played it, this is a push here?? </font> [/ QUOTE ] You are gonna flame my ass but on that flop I'd push way more often than I'd check. Leak of mine? maybe. But here is my thought process on how I'd play the hand: PF, raise 3x or 4x BB - you get one caller. What is he thinking? If he isn't a total donk, he knows you have a hand by raising that much from that position. A hand in this case is JJ-AA or AK. That ugly flop comes and you push = in this case improving your hand and you think hes a calling station. I'll go one further and say he is holding AQ or AJ, in an 11 maybe AT which is trouble but thats life. Plus you've still got some outs. gtr [/ QUOTE ] If you think the "donk" will put you on a JJ-AA, AK range then why would he call preflop with AT-AQ? But I agree hero should push, hoping to fold out all J's and Q's.
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#30
10-07-2005, 02:53 PM
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Re: Level 3 - TT - UTG
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think there is any point to playing this hand UNLESS you raise...A limp will get raised more often, and you will then be OOP on a flop that is most times very scary for your hand. [/ QUOTE ] Well, this isn't completely true. If you're raised, NegEV and I agree that I'd then push preflop.
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