Thoughts on problem starters...

[SoBeDude]

The problem with these off-suit hands is that they are 'raise or fold' hands in my book. I rarely limp, and NEVER COLD-CALL with such a hand. Depending on the game type is what makes these hands toggle between raise and fold.

I'm just curious,

If you're in LP, there are one or two MP callers and a LP raiser with loose raising standards, you won't call two here with AQ?

I would, is this a mistake?

-Scott

[Joe Tall]

Very good question here, Scott. The key is the 'loose raiser'.

If I've got a loose raiser in LP and I'm to act after, I'd probably 3-bet, hoping to knock out the blinds and leave a limper behind. I play rather aggressively, however. I often 3-bet out of the blinds if he's in the CO and the Button folds (I find the limpers fold when the Blinds explode like this).

I feel anyone you can knock out w/a hand like AQo the value of it goes up.


I would, is this a mistake?
No, it's your game, so if you are confindent with it, so be it. I'm no expert, frankly, I'm new to the game. I just have strong opinions and I absolutely love a debate. This topic (boarderline hands) gets bounced around all the time, and I enjoy it.

Have you read: 'Inside the Poker Mind' by John Feeney? There is a part called: 'Can you pass the AQo test?'
I talks specifically about calling 2 cold w/AQo, however, not against our loose raiser.
Check it out!

BTW I enjoy your posts, keep up the good work!
Peace,
Joe

[SoBeDude]

I haven't read it. I guess I should put it on my "gotta buy" list, eh?

And how loose does the raiser have to be before calling 2 cold is OK? If he has a broad-but-respectable range of raising hands I think this call is OK even if I don't really consider him "loose".

And just because its my game, doesn't make it right!! (hence the post [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] )

-Scott

P.S. Thanks for the kind words too

[bernie]

im with dynasty on this one. how much do you want with these hands?

the real question is where you get lost at. my guess would be postflop. or you dont know which hands are better for which texture game youre facing

understand how these hands play in different texture games. if your going to play them in less than favorable textures, you better be able to play them well postflop.

however, it sounds like youre doing fine with em

b

[RockLobster]

The problem is with your expectations. These hands should only be showing a modest profit.

That's good to know, but in my case I feel that I can play these better. The responses in this thread have been very helpful.

[RockLobster]

Hi bernie--

Thanks for the reply.

the real question is where you get lost at.

In general, the confusion comes in understanding why I'd play these a certain way. I've limped with AJo in LP with a few limpers ahead of me. This seems counter-intuitive, since this hand doesn't like company. I'm finding that some others do the same.

I also open limp in many games with KQo. It seems to work pretty well, but I don't understand why I would play this way.

Anyway, this thread has been very helpful. I'm going to reread the replies and make the adjustments that make sense to me.

[Joe Tall]

Feeney's 'Inside the Poker Mind' is by far and away a must read, and frankly, I'm surprised it's not talked about more.

In my opinion, I feel calling 2 cold w/AQo is a mistake. I can't see where calling here with such a hand will do any good. The hand does not enjoy company, therefore you are better off heads up, thus, my 'raise or fold' label with such a hand.

So, if the raiser is loose, I 3-bet to isolate. If the raiser is legit, easy fold.

[Homer]

Agreed. Inside the Poker Mind is a good book. A lot of the material in it can be found in HPFAP, but you really have to read and disect every bit of the book to acquire the bits of wisdom that John lays out clearly in his book. For example, from reading the preflop section of HPFAP, we should recognize that AQo is a clear fold against a solid EP raiser, since it is close to the weakest hand that he would raise with. Despite this, I used to find myself routinely three-betting with AQo, even after reading HPFAP. Why, because I had a Group 3 (?) hand. I didn't recognize that despite being a solid hand, it was not solid relative to the hand of a solid player who raised from EP.

Okay, end rambling.

-- Homer

[Lost Wages]

Man, you're playing in a tough game if the only hands people will play in LP after you limp in EP are AA, KK, QQ, AK & AQ.

Lost Wages

[Joe Tall]

I never said the only hands, I was just stating some of the dominating ones. I just don't see the point of limping with such a hand when it is way better off playing short-handed or heads up. Why invite company with such a hand?