Struggling with Moral Issues in Poker from a Christian Standpoint

[RJT]

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Until this forum’s name is either changed to add Religion to the Science, Math, Philosophy or the word Philosophy is dropped from it, I think it inappropriate to discuss (here) subjective issues such as yours. I’ll leave the hypocrisy to the atheists.

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I'm not too clear on why you think my topic is any less appropriate than any of the other religion-based questions in this forum. I consider faith a part of life's philosophy, a set of guidelines and decisions by which
people make decisions to live their lives. Just because I set forth my faith as a given doesn't make my argument irrelevant. Many philosophers including Descartes, Hume, discussed God and their beliefs in God. Could you clarify this point for me?

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I do indeed think it appropriate actually. But the politically correct folk who run the forum deemed (or forgot) to add religion to the title. Until they do, I decide not to give subjective opinions here. Philosophy is deemed intellectually honest here. When in reality it is merely a set of moral guidelines at best. Well, its use as exercise in logic is a good thing too.

Until the forum gives the status of religion that philosophy has or deletes the philosophy word from the forum’s title, I take a pass on giving subjective opinions.

Perhaps, I will give you a subjective opinion, maybe later or tomorrow. I am really only being self-righteous about some of the hypocrisy on the forum. It gets exasperating at times.

[sexdrugsmoney]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
My Question
Is targetting weak players against Christian principles?

Somehow I can't reconcile the killer attitude that I have when sitting down next to a loose, passive player who I know is itching to give away his money with that ideal. "In the name of Jesus, I take this pot from you because you play too loose." I don't see this attitude being something that Christ would approve of.

I'm open to all ideas and thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

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Poker is a great example of Capitalism.

These 'suckers' when they leave the table go about their lives. They buy and sell, and usually not only for themselves, but also for their wife and kids.

They face a capitalistic society where the goods they buy have in some cases an 80% markup and said goods were made by local workers not fortunate enough to be born in a western country, and in some cases these local workers are children.

And you are part of this system too, not only with poker, but in just normal life. At the very least you are a consumer, in which quite regularly someone is profiting off your decisions, and if you ever sell something you are profiting off someone else's decisions.

If you're not going to 'leave' the world and join a commune or monastery then you are choosing to stay in the capitalistic society. To support yourself you choose to play poker.

Enter poker.

A fish sits next to you, you have two choices:

A) Maximize his loss.
B) Minimize his loss.

Let's look at option A).

Option A) is preferable because it benefits you (naturally) but also adheres to the correct way to play the game.

But option A) may benefit Mr. Fish also.

You see, if Mr Fish makes a bad decision to play with money he can't afford to lose, I'd wager Mr. Fish's family (and somehow, idiots always manage to find someone to mate with and bring kids into the world *weep*) would not be happy for this to occur, for their 'breadwinner' to lose money, which he can't afford to lose.

Now, your conscience says option B) is more charitable right?

Maybe you soft play him, maybe you don't go for ante steals etc etc.

Q. What does this achieve in the end?

A. You have helped minimize Mr Fish's loss, therefore you have helped Mr Fish's gains, and every gain Mr Fish makes only re-enforces the belief he has that he can win at a game you know he can't.

Now think of Mr Fish's family again, and what happens if you do soft play him, and he 'breaks even' that night, or worse actually makes a bit of money because you gave up some of your edge.

A. Mr Fish continually returns to the tables believing he can win, and eventually there will come a time that Mr. Fish will lose more than he ever thought he could, maybe rent money or food money, and Mr Fish's family will suffer. (he may even lose them)

Yet if you play the game as it's mean't to be played, Mr Fish may either decide to quit poker or get better at it, the end result is that Mr. Fish's family benefits rather than suffers because of Mr. Fish's delusions that he is a good player because people soft play him out of pity.

The ironic thing is, if Mr Fish sat down next to you, and you said to him "Buddy I care about you, you are out of your league, I only say this out of brotherly love etc etc" Mr Fish would more than likely resent you sticking your 'good shepherd' nose into his business. (as would the other players)

Sometimes adults have to pay for the choices they make, it hurts and its not fair, but thats life, and fueling their delusions through action or inaction only exacerbates the problem.

This is life as we know it, exploitaive.

If you wish to leave from it and live in the 'white' that a monastery or commune can provide, I salute you. But if you stay in the system, welcome to the gray area, it's very confusing at times and very complex, and boundaries can't be seen as clearly as black/white sometimes.

Also in closing, those links posted about gambling as a sin are BS IMHO. By their definition, investing capital into a potential new business is gambling and therefore a sin, just another example of close-minded people looking for easy conclusive answers based on their axioms that all gambling leads to destruction and using the Bible as a basis, when in reality the Bible isn't clear about gambling IIRC.

Tired,
SDM

[Josh W]

2+2 Thread

This was a thread quite a while ago on this subject (not religiously motivated, just general morals.

I don't think I've ever included a URL in a post before, so if I botched it, I apologize.

My thoughts come down to this. I give 30% of what I win to charities.

It started from...I had many of the same feelings you have. I talked to a friend of mine who was a pro (I'm not one), and he said "well, most of the losers are gonna lose their money anyways, it might as well go to me!"

I thought about that, and eventually concluded that "no, it might as well go to charity".

I've talked to a number of people (see the referenced thread, as well as one with the same title cross posted in a different forum), and many others have adopted a similar plan.

One of the last things I said in the referenced thread was:

"his will also give you a sense of responsibility...kids will benefit if you get better at reading people. Cancer victims will have more hope if you avoid tilt. Teen Leadership programs will be able to flourish if you stop playing KTo in early position. It's a level of accountability."

Early on in my poker career, I felt I had a gift (not that I was the best ever, but I felt like if I had to devise a game to play to my strengths in life, poker would be it). As such, I should use my gift to help others, even if my gift is most easily manifested in selfishness and greed.

That's my two cents.

Josh

"I might as well leave hipocrisy to the atheists"

what an incredibly charitable and christian thing to say. honestly, thats great, thanks for showing christian love while bashing people who dont believe in the same thing you do. I guess your bible doesnt include the phrase "judge not"... must be that cool version I dont have yet.

second off, if you dont want to win at the poker table, then I would give it up. As someone who is incredibly well versed in christian theory and dogma, I would have a hard time saying that I cant take money from a weaker player. Honestly, when jesus said that what you do to others, you do to him, he hadnt decided to sit down at a poker table.

sometimes I think people go too far with the exact words of the bible. Let's think of who it was in Jesus' times who did the same thing: The leading Jewish authorities, who jesus said followed the letter of the law, and not the heart of it (Im referring to the time when jesus healed someone on the sabbath).

However, if your conscious is questioning this, then this shouldnt be your job anymore, and you can leave it with a light heart.

good luck to you on your future pursuits.





oh, and Im an atheist. I didnt say that at the beginning of this post because I know that the rest of the post would have been completely disregarded.

"I might as well leave hipocrisy to the atheists"

what an incredibly charitable and christian thing to say. honestly, thats great, thanks for showing christian love while bashing people who dont believe in the same thing you do. I guess your bible doesnt include the phrase "judge not"... must be that cool version I dont have yet.

second off, if you dont want to win at the poker table, then I would give it up. As someone who is incredibly well versed in christian theory and dogma, I would have a hard time saying that I cant take money from a weaker player. Honestly, when jesus said that what you do to others, you do to him, he hadnt decided to sit down at a poker table.

sometimes I think people go too far with the exact words of the bible. Let's think of who it was in Jesus' times who did the same thing: The leading Jewish authorities, who jesus said followed the letter of the law, and not the heart of it (Im referring to the time when jesus healed someone on the sabbath).

However, if your conscious is questioning this, then this shouldnt be your job anymore, and you can leave it with a light heart.

good luck to you on your future pursuits.





oh, and Im an atheist. I didnt say that at the beginning of this post because I know that the rest of the post would have been completely disregarded.

[Josh W]

I was completely baffled. Now, I think I'm mostly baffled.

I'm guessing your response is to the OP, and not me. The quote you put at the top isn't from my post, so I'm not sure why you are trying to attribute it to me.

But I'm quite likely wrong still somehow. Wow. Dizzy.

[RJT]

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I was completely baffled. Now, I think I'm mostly baffled.

I'm guessing your response is to the OP, and not me. The quote you put at the top isn't from my post, so I'm not sure why you are trying to attribute it to me.

But I'm quite likely wrong still somehow. Wow. Dizzy.

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Josh

Did you become "mostly baffled" the first time he made the post or the second time he posted the same words? Or is that part of the baffleing?

Just joking, behemoth.

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So, I guess the real question, then, is whether you care more about what God says, or playing poker. Easy choice for me.

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poker, right?

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AMEN!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

no, I was talking to the guy who made the satatement at the end of his post that I quoted above.

I havent been able to use my normal web browser to post on the forums, and it seems that sometimes, using the browser I do, it posts multiple times.

hi jcaesar.

you have done a brave thing by baring your thoughts on the issue, and i too have gone through similar struggles on the issue... here's my 2 cents.

A lot of people say that taking advantage of a weaker player for your profit violates Biblical principles (particularly the new testament) because Jesus taught not to take from the poor or disadvantaged.

But this argument misses the point that Jesus was absolutely intolerant of the unfaithful and the lazy...

The parable of the talents makes this clear...
"For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him." Matthew 25:29.

You should read this verse in the context of the parable, and then you will realise that the 'weak' ones who come to the table often do so because they are lazy in real life, and seek gambling as an easy way to make money... such an attitude is even worse than the one the 3rd servant in the parable had, and is exactly what the Bible declares as sin.

You will also see in other parts of the Bible, including the old testament, that God is absolutely ruthless against those who repeatedly sin against him. The examples are numerous and plentiful.

there is no shame in profiting from the actions of others who would not heed the Word of God.

I think what you have to guard against, is not being a stumbling block to others.

"Therefore, let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."
Romans 14:13

If you actively try to entice others to the gambling tables when you know that they are susceptible to gambling or when u know that their talents do not lie in poker playing, then that is clearly wrong. instead, you should even be discouraging people whom you know are weak from playing.

Being a poker player is a double edged sword. u can take to the activity in an honorable and respectful manner like Brunson did, or you can do serious harm to the game like Stu Ungar.