Defending BB with low pocket pair simple question

[chief444]

All of them.

[winky51]

If I played small pairs in the BB I would not be a "no set no bet" the other guy was claiming that.

BUT look what your against.

half the hands have you at 4:1
the other half are 10:11
and your out of position.

Does not seem like a winning strategy to me. All the books say the same thing. Why get involved with a small pair vs an early raiser from the BB. A good player will bet twice the flop and turn heads up. Are you calling the turn with a 66 with a dangerous board? Do you call the flop if an ace appears, he could have KQ?

So...
42 combos your way behind
29 hands you win by the river. and of these your folding sometimes because of the board.
33 hands you lose by the river.

Wheres the profit? Despite getting 3.5:1 by the river your not.

[hobbsmann]

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Your post made me think of this thread from March. It's funny looking back on it because back then there was sooo much that I really didn't understand. I was an ass but, this is a great thread. It's also funny because today I'd be playing every time - 3-betting against some opponents, calling against some and leading many flops. Thanks Errant, sfer!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

55 in the BB

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Everybody needs to read this thread. I found CMI's discussion of knowing you are up against AA with 55 very interesting and insightful.

[somapopper]

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66 I guess... but I think I should probably take it up to 88 as I'm not crazy about trying to take the pot away from the ep raiser without making a set or a straight draw.

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How is 66 really any different from 22 here.

HU, 88 unimproved can be a fine hand. If the pot's multiway then you can start thinking about set value, but for the rest, just get better at player postflop.

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Biggest thing is that 22 gets counterfited more often than 66.

Additionally, somebody mentioned A's making st8s and when you hit your set with 22, the likleyhood of a backdoor straight draw for the EP raiser increases.

Granted these are small considerations, but I'm not even sure these hands can be turned into +EV against decent opponents.

If you're primarily calling to try to take the pot away from a TAG EP raiser, how many bets do you think you're going to have to put in before you can figure out if he has broadway cards or a big pp that he's not folding? Do you think he's giving up broadways on the flop? When you see an A or a K on the flop you're folding right? How about a Q? Unless he has exactly AK that Q means you're behind again.

As far as I can see, the only way to hope to make money with this call is if you can squeeze about 4 more BBs out of your opponent when you hit the set on the flop. Maybe more, as set over set is gonna happen here more often then we like.

Give me a line that's +EV against his range and not just broadway cards that don't hit on the flop, and I'll happily change my mind, but until then I think it's spewing chips.

[somapopper]

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sorry bro. maybe i'm not a math guy, but folding in BB simply because an EP raises: you missing a lot of BBs. playing "no set no bet" thinking when calling to the flop is pretty sad too.

and maybe i'm way off or something but a tight EP raiser, even if we throw in 99 and 88:

non-pair combos: AK(16), AQ(16), AJ(16), KQ(16): 64
paired combos: AA-88(6 each): 42 combos

am i missing something? over 50% of the time, we're up against UI overcards.

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I'd say a truly tight EP raiser's range is AA-JJ (30) AK, AQ (32) so it's a little closer (throw in AJs, KQs, and 1010 if you like). Plus, an A,K, or Q will hit the flop ~ 50% of the time. I think it's pretty clear you would be totally mistaken to call if you knew you weren't going to hit a set. The question is the 50% of the time you could play without the set, can you turn enough of a profit on the hands that he has broadway cards, compared to the amount of money you're going to lose when he has a bigger pp. Remember his broadway cards have 8 outs, raiser is basically never folding before the turn, and never folding if he hits his outs, and never folding his big pocket pair to your BB call.

If I tell you you have to play 33 on a 875 rainbow board for the rest of your life out of position. And then I tell you I will flip a coin, tails you're playing against KK, heads you're playing against AQ, are you even considering playing poker ever again?

[@bsolute_luck]

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[ QUOTE ]
Your post made me think of this thread from March. It's funny looking back on it because back then there was sooo much that I really didn't understand. I was an ass but, this is a great thread. It's also funny because today I'd be playing every time - 3-betting against some opponents, calling against some and leading many flops. Thanks Errant, sfer!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

55 in the BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Everybody needs to read this thread. I found CMI's discussion of knowing you are up against AA with 55 very interesting and insightful.

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great link there. they say much better what i was trying to say.

[lufbradolly]

77 now i'm gonna read the replies. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]