QQ with AA flop

[MN_Mime]

Thank-you. Check-raise was my thought, too.

To Redd - I think there are a lot more hands that cap FP against OP in micros when it's his first orbit and he 'gets out of line'. Also, you've no idea what the action was at the table before you arrived (I had a fellow to my immediate right in a B&M game threaten to go out and get his gun if I 'kept' raising 'him' preflop. It was my first orbit).

[milesdyson]

who cares about letting two guys get cheap cards? only a king or someone hitting a two outer can hurt us. AT MOST, if we're ahead here, both guys together have 5 outs (one has Kx and the other has a pocket pair we beat). usually, if we're ahead, they're drawing to 2 outs together. the preflop capper has JJ or TT and the other dude has like JT or some other hopeless hand.

check raising the flop is bad first of all because we're rarely ahead, second of all because the third guy is usually drawing nearly dead, and third because the only hand we want the bettor to fold is KK. we want him to stay in with JJ and TT.

i'm for check calling the flop, and i agree that given this flop action, check calling the turn and river is -EV.

[Redd]

CO has usually <=2 (and at most 3) outs here. I don't mind him calling down with the worst of it. Especially if doing so requires me to beat my brains out against a hand that has a good chance of being better than mine.

[Nfinity]

Unknown=New/ Bad Player?

There are a lot of people who play at Party, and I know I haven't even played with a majority of them.

Think of it this way, you've probably never played with me, that makes me an unknown as far as your database is concerned, right?

I think that's the biggest problem now with these no reads hands. People see "unknown" and automatically lump them with the majority classification of "Loose Passive".

Even if you told me right now this guys stats over a bajillion hands, that alone wouldn't change my decision.

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, you guys.

The only thing more we know about Button than we did pre-flop is that he doesn't believe we have an Ace. Calling down is terrible because we give cheap cards to not 1 but 2 people if we are ahead. If it were HU on this flop I would consider WA/WB against an unknown.

I don't bet this flop, I check-raise it. Considering that we bet, I 3-bet in hopes of driving out the CO. If CO comes along or button caps, a Turn fold is probably in order.

I think that's what Aaron was getting at, otherwise I missed something.

[/ QUOTE ]

A check raise would probalby better define buttons hand, but if he caps and we call, that costs us just about as much as calling down, and we don't get to see the river card.

IMO, against an unknown I don't think we should be folding in this big pot. I am not worried about giving free cards as we are likely behind and if we're ahead they have weak draws against us. On top of that no one is getting a free card anyway if button keeps betting. Pushing out CO would be nice, but we do it at the risk of putting too many bets into the pot, or folding the best hand if button happens to be a maniac. I want to see a showdown and want to do it as cheaply as possible.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, you guys.

The only thing more we know about Button than we did pre-flop is that he doesn't believe we have an Ace. Calling down is terrible because we give cheap cards to not 1 but 2 people if we are ahead. If it were HU on this flop I would consider WA/WB against an unknown.

I don't bet this flop, I check-raise it. Considering that we bet, I 3-bet in hopes of driving out the CO. If CO comes along or button caps, a Turn fold is probably in order.

I think that's what Aaron was getting at, otherwise I missed something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not worried about cheap/free cards. I don't like check-raising (if you know why I'm not worried about free cards, then you know why I don't mind CO hanging around). I'd rather check-call to the river (not bet the river, either).

Since it's early in the session, I would like to get to know villain. If he has an ace, I'm not losing any more than check-call, check-call, bet-fold (you've got to fold to the river raise). But if he has KK-TT, then I will find out if he's willing to squeeze in that last bet on the river in position.

This knowledge is helpful because it's a strong indication of how hard he may be willing to push his hands. Against a player who will bet this river, I would expect see him value bet middle pair if checked to on the river.

Similarly, if he checks on the turn, I'm more inclined to believe that he's a timid player.

[ QUOTE ]
Unknown=New/ Bad Player?

There are a lot of people who play at Party, and I know I haven't even played with a majority of them.

Think of it this way, you've probably never played with me, that makes me an unknown as far as your database is concerned, right?

I think that's the biggest problem now with these no reads hands. People see "unknown" and automatically lump them with the majority classification of "Loose Passive".

Even if you told me right now this guys stats over a bajillion hands, that alone wouldn't change my decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't automatically classify anyone as anything. I sit down and play my ABC game until I have reads on everyone to adjust my play.

However I think my point is still valid. I have stats on most of the multi-tablers at Party 1/2. When I sit down I have stats on them, and maybe a donk or two. And guess what usually the other players end up being bad players. I'm not saying all of them, but a majority of them.

So if I get capped preflop I am against someone with a monster or an idiot. Against an unknown it is more likely to be an idiot. And IMO often enough to warrant calling this down.

[Nfinity]

[ QUOTE ]
who cares about letting two guys get cheap cards? only a king or someone hitting a two outer can hurt us. AT MOST, if we're ahead here, both guys together have 5 outs (one has Kx and the other has a pocket pair we beat). usually, if we're ahead, they're drawing to 2 outs together. the preflop capper has JJ or TT and the other dude has like JT or some other hopeless hand.

check raising the flop is bad first of all because we're rarely ahead, second of all because the third guy is usually drawing nearly dead, and third because the only hand we want the bettor to fold is KK. we want him to stay in with JJ and TT.

i'm for check calling the flop, and i agree that given this flop action, check calling the turn and river is -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I milled this over before I posted in favor of the 3-bet. Your correct and based on this alone you are correct. However:

1. It was folded to the CO who limped, then this guy raised. Granted he capped, but in this situation I think you will see a few more hands than just premium ones.

2. I'm more used to seeing the players who will "only cap with the NUTS" slowplay this hand a lot of times. This is a special situation though, so you could easily disalow it.


When I think about it just flat, though, like you I'm more inclined to say Miles is right, Nfinity is wrong.

[Nfinity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow, you guys.

The only thing more we know about Button than we did pre-flop is that he doesn't believe we have an Ace. Calling down is terrible because we give cheap cards to not 1 but 2 people if we are ahead. If it were HU on this flop I would consider WA/WB against an unknown.

I don't bet this flop, I check-raise it. Considering that we bet, I 3-bet in hopes of driving out the CO. If CO comes along or button caps, a Turn fold is probably in order.

I think that's what Aaron was getting at, otherwise I missed something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not worried about cheap/free cards. I don't like check-raising (if you know why I'm not worried about free cards, then you know why I don't mind CO hanging around). I'd rather check-call to the river (not bet the river, either).

Since it's early in the session, I would like to get to know villain. If he has an ace, I'm not losing any more than check-call, check-call, bet-fold (you've got to fold to the river raise). But if he has KK-TT, then I will find out if he's willing to squeeze in that last bet on the river in position.

This knowledge is helpful because it's a strong indication of how hard he may be willing to push his hands. Against a player who will bet this river, I would expect see him value bet middle pair if checked to on the river.

Similarly, if he checks on the turn, I'm more inclined to believe that he's a timid player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your train of thought for information gathering.

Good Post.

[grayhawk]

This is excellent analysis guys - thanks for all the responses. How about a little hand reading at the end?

River: (9 BB) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="red">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls

OK, what are CO's likely holdings? What are button's? Did Hero win?