Some Concept Questions

At loose tables I open limp AJo, ATo, KQo, maybe KJo. At tighter tables they become a fold b/c you're not likely to get hands you dominate coming in after you. And that's where most of the values of these hands come from people that are playing K9 or QJ or worse types of hands.
I don't raise for several reasons, 1) I think a raise discourages these hands that you dominate from entering the pot 2) This might not be as good of a reason, but I like to keep the pot small to discourage people from chasing. I want to have one or two people calling me down with a dominated hand that has little room to improve.

I obviously raise with my better hands that have a better PF equity edge, but we're talking about playing pretty marginal hands OOP here.

[CIncyHR]

So Im going to keep gonig with this, in the same post as the mod requested. Sticking with preflop until I feel Ive got that down.

Today's topic is what to do with Axs in MP and LP. The situation I am talking about is with 2 or more limpers in front of you. In my normal 6 max game, a lot of Axs are easy raises becuase I frequently have the best hand, plus it pumps up the pot for a big draw. Now, in full table I would think the value of building a big pot with a hand like this is higer, though the high card value is obivously lower. My hand chart suggests limping in most positions with most suited aces below AJs. So basically the question is: at what point are these hands worth a raise? with a T or 9 kicker? If there are lots of limper (say 4) wouldw e drop even lower with the raising requirements? With fewer limpers do we drop lower because we get better high card value? In what position does this cease to be worth considering?

Trying to correct errors in the preflop play.

Hope this doesnt get buried. Discuss, expand, enjoy.

[CIncyHR]

I also meant to include the fact that an LP or late MP raise serves to take control of the hand, and we becomethe agressor. Therefore, we'll often get free cards, or increase our fold equity.

Also, how do game conditions affect this play?

[Guruman]

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Also, how do game conditions affect this play?

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I wouldn't raise a suited ace with limpers in if there's a threat of being re-raised. Ax doesn't have enough value to go to war against 5 people preflop with, so get in cheap when you can. Only value-raise Axs preflop against individuals who A)will pay off till the river with a mid pocket pair when your ace falls, B)will give you free cards to chase your draws with, or C)will immediately fold the flop if they don't hit.

If you're raising Ax habitiually against people that don't exhibit at least two of those traits, you're probably losing money there.

Multiway Ax is fine to limp/call with preflop for me.

[Greg J]

Your conclusion is right, but the reasoning is a bit off base.

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Ax doesn't have enough value to go to war against 5 people preflop with, so get in cheap when you can.

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We are talking about AXs, which does play well multi way (4+), or HU, but not with only 2-3 others in (without dead money). That is because it can have super powerful draws, but also has the high potential to be dominated.

AXs a perfect example of the principle of the later you are as first in, the more likely you should open raise. I make ATs an open raise regardless of position. I will usually raise A9s, but not every time. You generally should not raise Axs where x<8 and there are 2 or more limpers -- but again that is not a hard and fast rule. Sometimes I will make a play like that to isolate really poor players if I think I can get people behind me to fold.

I think the lesson here again is table context.

I'm sure I'm missing something here and someone else will add some useful thoughts.

[CIncyHR]

So we are sure that with something like 4 or 5 limpers in front raising Axs is bad? Assuming that these are your standard LPP donks who will call with a ridiculous range of hands (many or most of which are behind Ax) isnt it OK to get lots of money in preflop witht he best hand and a huge draw? The real low A's have the wheel draw too.

Im sure theres a flaw in my logic somewhere since I play .50/1 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Harv72b]

Grunching.

I don't like to do a whole lot of openlimping, but...it really depends on the texture of the game. If you're on a loose, passive table, there are plenty of hands which can profitably be limped from EP (think suited broadway/connectors/aces & small pocket pairs). In that kind of a situation, it's not only okay to openlimp with those hands, it's good to do so.

However...most online games are not going to meet these criteria, at least once you get to the .50/1 level. In these situations, you want to be much more selective about what you openlimp with; suited connectors & small pocket pairs are generally out. After a recent discussion we had on the small stakes forum, I've been reevaluating my thoughts on openlimping suited broadway from EP, and so far it's been working out okay when I experimented with this.

That said, unless practically every player behind me is way loose/passive, I'm not openlimping from MP2 on. If it's folded to me there & I want to play my hand, I'm playing it for a raise. The same thing goes if there's a really weak player on my right; if he's the only one in the pot and I have a hand worth playing, I'm raising to isolate. Blind steals & isolation plays are very important facets of a winning full ring game.

Of course, if the table you're on is tight/aggressive, you need to first uncheck the "auto-post blind" button so you can leave after this orbit, and then don't even think about openlimping from anywhere.

[Harv72b]

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Today's topic is what to do with Axs in MP and LP. The situation I am talking about is with 2 or more limpers in front of you.

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It really depends on the players who limped ahead of me, my table image, and the players left to act behind me. However, when you're talking about a game like .50/1 or below (or possibly even 1/2 full), I think it's just a standard limp behind--you'll have too many players limping in ahead of you with hands that actually have you dominated, and you're very unlikely to force out a (slightly) stronger ace behind you by raising. And that's basically what you're looking to do when you do raise.

If I'm playing 3/6 or maybe even 2/4, I have two ultraloose limpers ahead of me, the blinds are pretty tight and I have a good table image, I will raise with almost any suited ace. Certainly down to A7s. This is because:

-I stand a very good chance of folding out a better ace, at least A8-AT & maybe AJo, behind me.
-My hand is considerably better than two random hands, which is basically what I'm up against.
-I have an excellent chance of folding out 'tweener cards behind me (hands with 2 cards higher than my kicker but no ace--this is important because I'd love to be able to win if I pair my kicker).
-I am supremely confident in my ability to outplay these two opponents with postition postflop.

That's about the only time I can think of when I'd like raising a mediocre suited ace behind two limpers.

Behind one limper, or folded to me in MP3 or later, I'm raising any suited ace. Unless that one limper is a very tight, passive opponent--then I'm folding.

Behind 3 or more limpers, this is an utterly standard limp behind situation.

[Greg J]

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So we are sure that with something like 4 or 5 limpers in front raising Axs is bad?

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You are trying to oversimplify this. You aren't thinking about it correctly. It depends on the limpers. In general I don't like raising if I have several 60/1 players limping b/c you sould easily be dominated with a hand like A4s.

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Assuming that these are your standard LPP donks who will call with a ridiculous range of hands...

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You will be surprised by how many clowns limp with AQ... or maybe not. I'm sure you've seen it.

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...isnt it OK to get lots of money in preflop witht he best hand and a huge draw?

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Slow down! Huge draw? Most flops will miss you. Now, that does not mean you won't have the best hand preflop which makes a raise ideal. But there are a lot of clowns that limp with AJo, or TT, or other hands they should raise. Sometimes you reward them by raising. Now, in and of itself this does not make raising Axs a bad idea after limpers. Axs is often the best. Often you are exploiting a preflop equity edge, sometimes not. I kind of think of it as a play that increases yr variance more than increases EV, which is not necessarily "bad," since any increase in EV is theoretical money you make.

An A coming can be trouble if you don't play it right -- you know what reverse implied odds are. On the other hand I guess it could get people to check to you on the flop if you only make a 3 flush. I'm babbling. I perfer a limp most of the time. Sometimes I cold call A8s or A9s if there are a couple of other cold callers in front. Blah blah blah.

I don't think you loose much raising A6s after several limpers with low limping standards. I just keep it simpler I guess.

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The real low A's have the wheel draw too.


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A6s is a better hand than A5s. Just so you know.

This post is longer than I intended and I'm tired.

[marchron]

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A6s is a better hand than A5s. Just so you know.

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SSHE says the wheel possibility makes A/5 a slightly better hand than A/6, but that's all.