Question for Geniuses.

[RJT]

Right, the baby is basically a fetus. Instead of in the womb, outside the womb and hooked up to tubes.

Not gonna comment from here. Just wanted to say it seems a good analogy, Purnell.

[hmkpoker]

You'd have to ask the baby.

I see this question as something that needs empirical evidence, but unfortunately, like most questions about consciousness, evidence is hard to come by.

[A_C_Slater]

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There is a story from World War One about a American soldier that lost his sight, hearing, arms, and legs from a land mine.

This is about as close as one can get to this state you describe. There is a movie about it, but I forget what it's called. In the movie the soldier eventually tells the doctor's too kill him in morse code, by banging his head against the steel rail of the bed saying "kill me, kill me, kill me" over and over again in the code.


Metallica wrote a song about this movie, it is called "One" from the '...And Justice For All' album.

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why didnt he just tell the docs to kill him? why bang his head in code?

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Well, I forgot to mention it, though it should seem obvious. He loses his speech as well.

I do not believe a person in such a state would know that he or she were alive.

The ability to think, regardless of having or not having senses, is not impaired. However, the method and mode of thought is. Thought is based from experience - which is gathered from the senses. Without senses, a person has no experience, and therefore has no basis for thought. What would a person who has never experienced anything think about? His or her thought would be completely and radically different from our own.

Some might argue that, despite handicaps, this person would still be self-aware. How? Self is a concept. This person would never have had any experience regarding self or individual. This person would not even know what a person was. This person would not even know what a concept was. Everything is foreign. Even the basic necessities - food, shelter, water, clothing, etc. would be foreign. The concept of a body to put clothes on is alien. This person would not even be aware of physical form. The body would still desire food, but the mind would not know what food was. This person would not even understand the concept of life or death.

For all purposes, this person can hardly be considered alive much less self-aware.

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I do not believe a person in such a state would know that he or she were alive.

The ability to think, regardless of having or not having senses, is not impaired. However, the method and mode of thought is. Thought is based from experience - which is gathered from the senses. Without senses, a person has no experience, and therefore has no basis for thought. What would a person who has never experienced anything think about? His or her thought would be completely and radically different from our own.

Some might argue that, despite handicaps, this person would still be self-aware. How? Self is a concept. This person would never have had any experience regarding self or individual. This person would not even know what a person was. This person would not even know what a concept was. Everything is foreign. Even the basic necessities - food, shelter, water, clothing, etc. would be foreign. The concept of a body to put clothes on is alien. This person would not even be aware of physical form. The body would still desire food, but the mind would not know what food was. This person would not even understand the concept of life or death.

For all purposes, this person can hardly be considered alive much less self-aware.

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Strange to see that someone showing some recognition to the complex concepts coming into play in a subject like this, can just as easily cruise along these concepts like its 'basics/self-evident' and form a question and conclusion in just under 20 sentences. I hope you see how ridiculous that is?

FYI, for me, im not burning my hands on this one(let the flaming begin [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ). I dont see any reason for throwing wild statements out here since they do not fullfill any other possible need for me than wanting to be recognised as an 'intellectual'(and i hate that need, i have it but i hate it). Forming any kind of a decent hypothesis on this casus that would actually be somewhat fruitful would take weeks at least, and im too lazy for that plus i have other things to do...(like i said flame away)

[jakethebake]

My cousin had a baby like this actually. It was born w/o a brain stem or something. It was pretty much the most horrible thing ever. The doctors said it would only live like a month or so. It lived a horrible 6 months.

[Dan Rutter]

Understanding what a paralyzed person can feel and do would probably help. Can a paralyzed person feel hunger, can he or she cry? Would being feed from tubes ease feelings of hunger? If these situations would be true, maybe the person in your question would overtime be able to realize that a pain from hunger occurs. Something then occurs that causes this pain to stop. Overtime, if this person has capabilities to cry, maybe they would be able to communicate their hunger.

Would this person be able to maintain a sense of balance? Or have a sense of balance? Say you pick this person up and spin them in circles. Would this person realize something irregular is occuring?

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The body would still desire food, but the mind would not know what food was.


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Right.. I mean the stomach would still get hungry and send impulses to the brain. Your brain would know it was hungry but would have absolutely no idea how to negate this feeling... you don't know what FOOD is because you've never experienced it. Your brain would know it was hungry or tired but would just wait for it to go away.

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Overtime, if this person has capabilities to cry, maybe they would be able to communicate their hunger.


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Interesting.. like a baby that somehow knows to cry when hungry... I didn't think of this.

I'm pretty sure this person would be able to produce tears at least. Perhaps not ball and wail, but produce tears from hunger. But would it even know it was producing tears? I doubt it.

So maybe it can communicate with the outside world, yet is not aware of doing so.

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I hope you see how ridiculous that is?

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No, not really.

All I, or anyone else, can do is speculate. Obviously no one has ever been born without all five senses and told us what it was like. However, we can make an educated hypothesis on it. If you consider the fact that this person would never even have knowledge of his or her own body, much less the concept of form, then it is hard to believe he or she would be self-aware. How would he or she ever gain the knowledge of the difference between life and death? They would not know what 'being alive' meant.