Quiz - Family pot flop play with MPTK

[kirkt]

The situations I'd check on the turn are few and far between. One is I buy the last position to act on the turn (unlikely even at poker stars), another jack comes, or the only person behind me is a maniac who will always bet out if another ace or seven comes and I check.

[TripleH68]

With 800 kabillion limpers I call the flop and look for a favorable turn.

The flop is drawless. I don't mind Ax or 7x coming along. And if someone wants to make a runner-runner str8 or flush so be it. We don't have a hand to protect here 7-handed do we?

Tell me if this thinking is too weak.

I'm with you. I like this play a lot better if we're acting after everyone has checked it through, our raise is more likely to fold them out and it is more likely that the bettor is taking a stab at the pot without a jack.

[Shillx]

Call or fold. I would fold. Eh maybe I'd call I dunno.

[@bsolute_luck]

i'd have raised preflop. fold the poster and get HU with UTG+2.

the flop: just call and hope he doesn't have AJ and that all 5 of your outs are goot. you're probably behind to a Jack already, so you're not winning this hand UI.

[VoraciousReader]

Raises?

[Catt]

I'm really surprised. This strikes me as a must-raise. You have the odds to continue; the pot is pretty big; there are a bunch of players left to act behind you; you must raise to protect your hand (and protecting means forcing players to fold and forfeit equity in the pot or make a bad call - either way we've protected).

This reminds me very much of the introduction to post-flop concepts from SSHE in which, if I recall correctly, Hero does something dumb like cold-calling pre-flop with K7 and then calls a flop bet from his immediate right with his second pair and others to act behind. Again if I remember correctly - Ed Miller points out that many can identify the clear error pre-flop but many don't identify the more costly error - calling the flop (Hero in the SSHE hand has a BDFD, I believe). We have a chance to knock out three hands with our raise and the pot is big enough to fight for it here. I'd certainly like to have a BD draw to help the strength of my hand, but even in its absence, I think calling here is a pretty good-sized error. If we're going to contniue, I think this is a must raise.

I don't like a raise here b/c I don't think our hand is good often enough to make it worthwhile to fold the other hands out. I like a raise here if we have like an inside draw or some backdoor draws or some if raising would clear up some of our outs. I'd rather just peel and hope to spike one of our 5 outs on the turn.

FWIW, I also tend to find that these situations work much better if you are raising after the PFR bets. In these cases, everyone respects the preflop raiser, assumes you have a monster and gets out of the way. At least it is much more likely.

[Shillx]

I was gonna wait to post this, but now is a good time. This hand is far different then the scenario you present (and far more dangerous). Let's say the hand goes as follows...

EP raises and you donk it up with A7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. There are 2 more coldcallers and the blinds fold.

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

PFR bets and now we have a clear raise. The PFR will be betting a ton of hands here that you beat like big missed aces and kings. A poster (or limper) is not going to bet AK into a field of 6 people in an unraised pot. Now I'm not saying that we should always call in this spot, but it is pretty dependant on the board. If the flop were 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] we should probably raise since there is a good chance that the flop bettor is on a draw. A J72r board doesn't offer many draws that people will choose to bet.

More later. Gotta run.

[istewart]

Catt you have some good points but yeah there's a major difference between the hands in that in SSHE the guy raised preflop.