My flaw costs me a huge pot(a case for checkraising) - Page 3

Rev. Good Will · #21 09-09-2005, 01:20 PM

C/R flop, for value

you played it fine though IMO

Fantam · #22 09-09-2005, 02:04 PM

Jrz1972 is right. You should concentrate on trying to maximise the size of the pot when you have a set.

You have a strong draw to a full house against flush draws and OESD's, and hopefully the pot will also be padded by other players drawing nearly dead.

@bsolute_luck · #23 09-09-2005, 02:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Jrz1972 is right. You should concentrate on trying to maximise the size of the pot when you have a set. 

You have a strong draw to a full house against flush draws and OESD's, and hopefully the pot will also be padded by other players drawing nearly dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It is the exact same thing whether they call one bet at a time or two at once. You make the same amount of money in either case.

Look at it this way. You have a gignormous equity edge over a gutshot. For that matter, you have a huge equity edge against a flush draw or oesd (I think you only lose about 2/9ths of the time against those "strong draws.) Whether it is "correct" for the draw to call doesn't concern me; what concerns me is that I make a lot of money off every bet that goes into the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple fundamental points in poker:
1. put your opponents in positions to make mistakes
2. be aggressive in large pots to maximize your chances of winning.

reread the bolded section together and realize how little sense this makes.

Blue section: incorrect. you should concentrate on WINNING the pot, which coincidentally results in a bigger pot and having draws pay the max (and the pot is big enough, we have a huge profit when/if they fold already).

#24 09-09-2005, 02:54 PM

You definitely have a point. I think probably what Jrz is saying though, is that people at these stakes are going to make mistakes either way. This guy was going to call his inside draw whether it was 1,2,3 or 4 bets back to him. So I think a strong case can be made for taking a line that puts the most bets in the middle when you have an edge, rather than focusing on giving people the wrong odds to call for a draw. For example, going for a check raise on the flop here would give this guy incorrect odds to call an inside draw. However, the guy is going to call anyways, and in order to give this guy incorrect odds to call, you just missed out on putting 3-4BB's into a pot that you're a huge favorite to win.

jrz1972 · #25 09-09-2005, 03:03 PM

Are you saying that its fundamentally incorrect to value bet my set?

@bsolute_luck · #26 09-09-2005, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that its fundamentally incorrect to value bet my set?

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh* no, what i'm saying is you don't make more money by c/r but by betting out and you force many draws to cold call 2 incorrectly, which is fine BECAUSE our hand is so strong, but it still forces them to make the mistake and because the pot is already so big, IF they fold we win as well.

you get the max by betting into a PRF who may raise, all draws cold call, allowing you to then 3-bet your strong hand and getting draws to call 3 bets instead of 2, so not only do you force them to make a mistake, but you get more money out of them and at the same time maximizing your chances to win this big pot if they correctly fold.

jrz1972 · #27 09-09-2005, 03:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that its fundamentally incorrect to value bet my set?

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh* no, what i'm saying is you don't make more money by c/r but by betting out and you force many draws to cold call 2 incorrectly, which is fine BECAUSE our hand is so strong, but it still forces them to make the mistake and because the pot is already so big, IF they fold we win as well.

you get the max by betting into a PRF who may raise, all draws cold call, allowing you to then 3-bet your strong hand and getting draws to call 3 bets instead of 2, so not only do you force them to make a mistake, but you get more money out of them and at the same time maximizing your chances to win this big pot if they correctly fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well yeah if I had a guarantee that the PFR would raise and everybody would call and I would get to three-bet, obviously I would go that route. That gets even more bets in the pot than the line I was advocating.

The problem with that is that it won't happen all that often, so I'm going for a check-raise instead.

You guys are too worried about gutshots on this board. You have a gigantic equity edge over the field. The way you make money at poker is by maximizing the number of bets that go into the pot in these situations. There's nothing really fancy or complicated about this hand. You have a very strong holding that will usually (2/3 of the time or so) win UI. Even if your opponents make their draw, about 1/3 of the remaining time you'll improve to a better hand yourself. This is just an exercise in value betting.

I'm not sure you fully realize that I make money off every bet a gutshot puts into this pot, even if he is correct in calling.

lautzutao · #28 09-09-2005, 03:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
*sigh* no, what i'm saying is you don't make more money by c/r but by betting out and you force many draws to cold call 2 incorrectly, which is fine BECAUSE our hand is so strong, but it still forces them to make the mistake and because the pot is already so big, IF they fold we win as well.

you get the max by betting into a PRF who may raise, all draws cold call, allowing you to then 3-bet your strong hand and getting draws to call 3 bets instead of 2, so not only do you force them to make a mistake, but you get more money out of them and at the same time maximizing your chances to win this big pot if they correctly fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

*bingo* [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

The pot was already substantial at the flop, and I would have been quite happy winning it right then and there [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] But by betting into everyone I forced fish to call the bet(incorrectly...this is true), and once a fish puts money in a flop, they arent going to fold to any sized bet. I could have potentially punished these draws more by checking and then raising when it came back to me, even POSSIBLY forcing at least one or two people out(the BB most notably...he wouldn't have bet the flop if checked to him with that hand) if faced with calling 2 or 3 bets cold. If they all call anyway, they're even more incorrect to do so. I have just as much equity(even more actually) with less players seeing the turn however, and the pot would have been just as large.

My for instance in this specific hand...

If I check, the BB checks and the PFR bets(a reasonable assumption) the CO raises(or doesn't I guess it doesn't matter really)and it comes back to me and I three bet(or raise) everyone who calls at this point is incorrect and potentially moreso because it'll cost them more to call. I would have put UTG in a predicament and BB would have been even WORSE off than he was with the line I took.

@bsolute_luck · #29 09-09-2005, 03:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with that is that it won't happen all that often, so I'm going for a check-raise instead

[/ QUOTE ]

this is based on what? you're assuming he doesn't have AK[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or AA- who would raise this. even UI overcards might raise this figuring you only have a 9 and they're trying a "free card" more, or you may bet out, the PFR calls, but the flush draw raises trying for the "free card". plus if they do have AA or something and you c/r they are not 3-betting, so you've lost even more bets.

plus if you check, the UI cards may check it through and the LP flush draw bets, now what? you're probably valuebetting your trips and facing the field to cold call anyways and now you've lost even more bets, so your foundation of "getting in more bets" is lost.

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are too worried about gutshots on this board

[/ QUOTE ] i don't know where you came up with this line of thinking. i believe in my post i was pretty emphatic about the strength of your hand. if they fold- good, if they don't- good. either way we win in the long run. [ QUOTE ]
The way you make money at poker is by maximizing the number of bets that go into the pot in these situations.

[/ QUOTE ]
yes, and i agree with this and i believe both in this post and the previous one, i have clearly stated that betting out puts more $$$ in the pot, so i don't understand what this thought is trying to accomplish.
[ QUOTE ]
This is just an exercise in value betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true and the line i have suggested will meet your requirements of a bigger pot and maximize our chances of winning- win/win situation. the c/r will not- in this situation.

Fantam · #30 09-09-2005, 03:47 PM

As this thread seems to be about how to best to play a set, heres a hand that I played some time ago:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, CO calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds,MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (7BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players) 
MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (10 BB) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players) 
MP3 bets, CO folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Without being results orientated, do you think that I played this hand correctly ? At the time, I raised the flop to try to protect my hand.

However it occurred to me afterwards, that (to exploit my flop equity edge) I may have been better off not raising the flop to knock players out.