Is not 3-betting TPTK weak/passive play?

[TaintedRogue]

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Again, I don't see how the odds are good enough of me having the best hand to get aggressive, however, I'm not giving up.

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Have you been paying attention when you play online? There are a whole lot of weaker Kings that are limping preflop and raising this flop, as well as a ton of other [censored] you'd never expect, like 77-TT and straight draws and flush draws and A4s. The guy has raised you once and now you're sure you're beat?

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I'm not sure I'm beat, but I think it's 50/50 or better. I think the problem here, is that I don't play on-line. I play 10/20 in house games where I live. Much smarter players. They may make a move occassionally with a smaller pair, but not often enough to warrant a re-raise.

[Dagger78]

What hands is the UTG player raising with that have you beat, 44 , 33 , and 43. That's it, he's raising with a weaker kicker or a PP ALOT more here, both of which he may call you down with. Raise and punish him. Call down if he caps.

[TaintedRogue]

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"Because he raised preflop out of position (in the blind) bet out on the flop & got raised. If UTG raised with a set, when are you going to get off the hand?
If he has KQ, I'm going to walk with him to the river. Even if he has the Qc, I'm going to win the great majority of the time as he bets away with weaker kicker. What else did UTG limp with that warranted a raise, next to act after the blind raised preflop and the bet out on the flop?
He is not raising on the flop with nothing but a flush draw when there is another player behind him, unless he thinks he can push the blind off his hand after getting the 3rd player to fold.
No, UTG either hit his hand hard, or is a donkey."

Okay, this is sort of the right reason, but your fears of losing in this hand after only this much action are unfounded. There needs to be another raise on your part followed by a reraise on his before I think I'm beat. He could easily have a worse K or a club draw or some other random BS pairs here.

But if he really either has you beat or has complete cacadoodoo here, then check-calling. I just doubt that this will be an accurate account of the situation very rarely.

The very best reason to call the flop would be because your opponent is aggro and plays flush draws too hard, and you think you can get a checkraise in on a non-club turn and that he'll bet a club turn for you with a worse hand.

-Michael

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Again with the flush draws?! I don't understand why people think UTG would raise the flop with nothing but a flush draw with another player to act. I think I have been out of touch with low limit on-line play.

[TaintedRogue]

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Getting fancy heaeds up and out of position isn't a great idea.

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My man! Somebody agrees with me finally.

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I'm not sure we agree here. With that post, I'm saying you should 3-bet and lead the turn.

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Well UTG had K3 and the blind sucked out on the river when a four came, so I guess you would have pumped up the pot with the worse hand.

[TaintedRogue]

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What hands is the UTG player raising with that have you beat, 44 , 33 , and 43. That's it, he's raising with a weaker kicker or a PP ALOT more here, both of which he may call you down with. Raise and punish him. Call down if he caps.

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This is what I cannot comprehend. People playing smaller pairs this poorly in this situation. Since that is the case, I stand corrected.

[private joker]

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Because he raised preflop out of position (in the blind) bet out on the flop & got raised.

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So, when you raise in the blind preflop, bet out on the flop and have the next player raise, you figure you've got the best hand?

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So, you raise preflop out of position in the blind, bet out on the flop, get raised, and figure you have the best hand?

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Dude, you're sounding like a broken record. Look, just because you lost this hand, don't be results oriented and change your line to just calling this all the time. You have top pair top kicker on a harmless flop with nothing but a flush draw on it.

The vast majority of the time, hands like KQ/KJ/KTs will raise this flop, and they would be correct to do so. You need to 3-bet because you have the best hand most of the time. And yes, this even because you "raised preflop! out of position! and bet the flop! and got raised!" Look, all PFRs will lead the subsequent flop whether they hit it or not. If I am Villain and limped with something like KTs, and Hero led this flop, there are a number of hands I now beat, like AQ, QQ, JJ, etc. I would raise.

Maybe this time you got unlucky and he flopped a set of 4s, but you'll find that out on the turn. So three-bet this. If he caps (or calls and raises the turn), then you can fold on the turn. But don't start overthinking this and begin to routinely just call here.


EDIT: I wrote this post before I saw the results that UTG had K3. I have two things to say to that:

1) UTG is a horrible poker player, and this should make us happy.
2) I stand by everything I wrote. 3-bet the flop.

[TaintedRogue]

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The vast majority of the time, hands like KQ/KJ/KTs will raise this flop, and they would be correct to do so.

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I did not know there were so many donkeys out there limping with KJ,KT UTG.
You need to 3-bet because you have the best hand most of the time. And yes, this even because you "raised preflop! out of position! and bet the flop! and got raised!" Look, all PFRs will lead the subsequent flop whether they hit it or not. If I am Villain and limped with something like KTs, and Hero led this flop, there are a number of hands I now beat, like AQ, QQ, JJ, etc. I would raise.

Maybe this time you got unlucky and he flopped a set of 4s, but you'll find that out on the turn. So three-bet this. If he caps (or calls and raises the turn), then you can fold on the turn. But don't start overthinking this and begin to routinely just call here.


EDIT: I wrote this post before I saw the results that UTG had K3. I have two things to say to that:

1) UTG is a horrible poker player, and this should make us happy.
2) I stand by everything I wrote. 3-bet the flop.

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UTG is a horrible player limping with KJ/KT UTG.

[shant]

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Well UTG had K3 and the blind sucked out on the river when a four came, so I guess you would have pumped up the pot with the worse hand.

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OK? So he happened to have a hand that beat you? You're telling me you won't 3-bet a player that limps K3 UTG? I guess you'll also never counterfeit him if he has that hand? Do you think a player that plays K3 could also have any other K with a weaker kicker on this flop? OMG what if he had K4? 3-bet the flop.

[TaintedRogue]

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Well UTG had K3 and the blind sucked out on the river when a four came, so I guess you would have pumped up the pot with the worse hand.

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OK? So he happened to have a hand that beat you? You're telling me you won't 3-bet a player that limps K3 UTG? I guess you'll also never counterfeit him if he has that hand? Do you think a player that plays K3 could also have any other K with a weaker kicker on this flop? OMG what if he had K4? 3-bet the flop.

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Ok. I now realize that on-line low-limit poker has a lot of donkeys limpin UTG with KJ/KJ/Kx suited.

[shant]

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Ok. I now realize that on-line low-limit poker has a lot of donkeys limpin UTG with KJ/KJ/Kx suited.

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Isn't it rad?