If you never bluffed...

[bernie]

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The flop is 2 5 6 with two diamonds and you have the 3 4 of diamonds and you think you would be betting with the best hand? Where do you play?

The best draw perhaps, the best hand ?

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You may want to reread what you typed. When I flop a nut str8 and have 2 outs taken against a flush redraw, I assume I have the best hand, don't you? You play somewhere where you don't have the best hand at this point?

b

[bernie]

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You're a favorite blindly going from flop to the river. If you're putting money in on the individual streets, you are not the favorite.

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That doesn't mean you're not making money on each bet going into the pot on that street.

You flop top set, someone flops a nut str8, 2 others flop a flush draw, the str8 flips over his hand, showing the nuts at this point, you're not jamming that flop?

b

[trumpman84]

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Yes I see why, because you watch too much poker on TV. Just suppose the flop was as I stated above and the 2 and 5 were diamonds. Now suppose your oponnent had A6 of diamonds. How on earth could you think you have the best hand 100% of the time? you will be a 2 to 1 dog here and this is only one possible example. Of course it only takes one for you to be 100% incorrect now doesn't it?


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How can I flop the nut straight with an OESF draw and be an underdog to win the pot...I don't understand.

[Kaeser]

Actually in the case illustrated with 2,5,6 on the board with 2 diamonds and Hero holding 3,4 of diamonds you have the nut straight with a small flush draw. In this case you have the nuts and you probably don't want a diamond to fall.

I believe what the case they want is if for example the flop is 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. With Hero holding the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. With an open-ended straight/flush draw.

In this case you have at least 6 clean outs for a straight with 9 additional outs for a possibly winning flush.

So let's say we count half the flush outs to make up for the times when we don't win that gives us about 10.5 outs to win. With two cards to come we're about 50% to win the pot. Pretty good when your looking at several callers on the flop.

[runout_mick]

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Let me see if I understand you: The flop is 2 5 6 with two diamonds and you have the 3 4 of diamonds and you think you would be betting with the best hand? Where do you play?

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I think you should re-read your post, at this point we have the nut straight with an open ended strt flush draw. I'm assuming the example you meant to post was JUST the oesd, NOT including the flopped straight... I think I see the confusion in this debate.

Let me see if I understand you: The flop is A 5 6 with two diamonds and you have the 3 4 of diamonds and you think you would be betting with the best hand? Where do you play?

Is this the example you meant?

Here's the problem... most of those "you have to bluff to win in poker" rules came about in a day-and-age when you constantly played with the same players.

In the internet world... it's rare to see someone stay at the same table for any length of time. You can be moderately profitable by never bluffing.

[Jimbo]

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I think you need to take the limit your playing at into account. I play 3/6 live and rarely if ever bluff because it rarely if ever works. There is no reason to bluff as long as you are against opponents who will call your strong hands.

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So you are saying if you flopped an open-ended straight flush draw and were last to act you wouldn't bet? Odd if you ask me.

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That's not bluffing. That's betting with the best hand.

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Let me see if I understand you: The flop is 2 5 6 with two diamonds and you have the 3 4 of diamonds and you think you would be betting with the best hand? Where do you play?

The best draw perhaps, the best hand ? I don't think so!!!!!! Are you from Australia? You know where they redefine words to suit their own needs.

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I apologize to all in this thread.

When I wrote this:

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So you are saying if you flopped an open-ended straight flush draw and were last to act you wouldn't bet? Odd if you ask me.


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I had intended to demonstrate the above with a valid example. Like: 2 3 7 with the 2 3 suited, someone having an open-ended str8 flush draw and the oponnent having top pair with an Ace kicker in the same suit.

I then compounded my idiocy by believing I had posted the example I had wanted. How can I expect you to be able to read my mind? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Agaim I am stupid and apologize to you all.

Thank you all for responding to my post with so much interesting information; it's quite an eye-opener as I had always had a horrible habit of assuming players were bluffing me on difficult draws - only to go on to lose yet more money!
I've recently extended my less-bluffing/take-other-players'-actions-more-seriously concept to full-ring tables (as opposed to 6-max) and found that playing was more enjoyable (less stress); swings are less drastic; end-of-day profit increased.
Thanks all again for sharing.

[jtr]

Nice apology, Jimbo. I was beginning to dislike you until this bit.

I used to beleive that bluffing wasn't a very large part of poker. Since I've started to incorporate some bluffs into my game I've been amazed at some of the pots I've taken down simply by taking control of the hand - and maintaining it - with only the beleif that noobdy else was benefiting from the flop and that I could get them to fold at least once out of as many big bets were in the pot.

If you're in a fairly tight game you can bluff a little more frequently. You also have to add the fact that hands are played twice as fast, if not more, than in B&M poker rooms when you're playing online. This should allow you to bluff a little more frequently, especially when your image is that of a tight player or one who has shown down some very strong hands recently.

You just have to be careful with that last aspect as, again, you don't sit with the same people often or for very long stretches.