$109s - AQ Hand

[Oluwafemi]

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depends on what my flop move was and what happened to it.

citanul

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Flop: (t115) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] , 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t115, Button calls t115.

Turn: (t345) 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero?

[citanul]

well, personally on the flop i either lead 70-75 or about 150-175, and very rarely do i lead 115.

if i had taken the action as you described, i'd probably make a choice between leading about 1/2 the pot on the turn, sometimes pushing on the turn, and checking the turn, usually with the intention of calling a push on the turn. (that line gets the bluffs *and* hands yo'ure behind, instead of just getting called by hands that beat you if you push, so you gain a lot of value.) usually you'll have a read. with my line, i'd probably be happy getting it all in on the turn against a known donk who'll pay me off with AJ or somesuch, however, this hand as it was played out seems either like a set, or my favorite, the turned 2 pair. hero i think can get away from this hand as he played it on the flop and turn pretty safely against almost all opponents.

very very very few opponents at almost any stakes sng are going to "muscle" you off this pot on the turn. i'm hoping you don't get "muscled" off such pots in the 5s or 10s.

citanul

[Oluwafemi]

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well, personally on the flop i either lead 70-75 or about 150-175, and very rarely do i lead 115.

if i had taken the action as you described, i'd probably make a choice between leading about 1/2 the pot on the turn, sometimes pushing on the turn, and checking the turn, usually with the intention of calling a push on the turn. (that line gets the bluffs *and* hands yo'ure behind, instead of just getting called by hands that beat you if you push, so you gain a lot of value.) usually you'll have a read. with my line, i'd probably be happy getting it all in on the turn against a known donk who'll pay me off with AJ or somesuch, however, this hand as it was played out seems either like a set, or my favorite, the turned 2 pair. hero i think can get away from this hand as he played it on the flop and turn pretty safely against almost all opponents.

very very very few opponents at almost any stakes sng are going to "muscle" you off this pot on the turn. i'm hoping you don't get "muscled" off such pots in the 5s or 10s.

citanul

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actually i don't. i get called by the worst of it and get sucked out on the river. so in essence, my line has had more tragic results than it's had tragic reasoning. the extreme majority of the time, i take the pot on the turn when they fold or i get called by a dominated hand. to the lesser is when they actually call with the better hand on the turn.

[Gramps]

Keep the pot under control on the Turn - you're way ahead or way behind, but it's going to be hard to stay in if he makes a play at you on the Turn (which sucks, b/c he may do this with a worse Ace and it's hard to give a loose/reckless player credit for a better hand even though they'll have it a fair % of the time). Also if you check the Turn, he may bet a hand he wouldn't have called you with (that has very few outs and that you don't mind seeing one more card). Or, he may check behind but call a River bet/bet the River when checked to with a hand he would have folded to your Turn bet.

If he raised with T9o, in the spot you're in, I'd probably begrudgingly call the raise and call the River bet or come back over the top. I'm not folding to this type of player with the # of chips in the pot at this point - but, I don't like having to go to war here and would prefer playing more protection in Level 1 here.

[citanul]

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actually i don't. i get called by the worst of it and get sucked out on the river. so in essence, my line has had more tragic results than it's had tragic reasoning. the extreme majority of the time, i take the pot on the turn when they fold or i get called by a dominated hand. to the lesser is when they actually call with the better hand on the turn.

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and here we have, in a nutshell, the problem when people try to use advice from high stakes games to use in their play at low stakes games. i'm not saying that you shouldn't continue posting in threads like these or anything, as clearly you and others will learn something, but you should be willing to accept and understand, and possibly even take into account when you offer advice and analysis in your original post, that there are differences between play at the different stakes.

in specific, i can assure you that the majority of the time that you put in the bet that gets all in on the turn on this hand, and you are called, you will be behind, significantly.

that is, in bet, raise, 3 bet
in push call
and in check bet raise all in call

lines, you are usually in bad, bad shape here, at the 109s.

at the 5s and 10s and likely the 22s, and maybe the 33s, you are usually ahead on average, and usually ahead in a dominanating fashion.

so yeah, when you make a post to offer a line for a hand like this in the future, do consider the quality of your average opponent for the stakes and hand that you are commenting on. it will help you a lot.

citanul

[Unarmed]

Gramps,

If I'm holding AK and the K flops I will check the turn for the reasons you mentioned. However, when the ace hits I honestly think we're better off just pounding away and stacking weaker aces. Thoughts?

[Oluwafemi]

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actually i don't. i get called by the worst of it and get sucked out on the river. so in essence, my line has had more tragic results than it's had tragic reasoning. the extreme majority of the time, i take the pot on the turn when they fold or i get called by a dominated hand. to the lesser is when they actually call with the better hand on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

and here we have, in a nutshell, the problem when people try to use advice from high stakes games to use in their play at low stakes games. i'm not saying that you shouldn't continue posting in threads like these or anything, as clearly you and others will learn something, but you should be willing to accept and understand, and possibly even take into account when you offer advice and analysis in your original post, that there are differences between play at the different stakes.

in specific, i can assure you that the majority of the time that you put in the bet that gets all in on the turn on this hand, and you are called, you will be behind, significantly.

that is, in bet, raise, 3 bet
in push call
and in check bet raise all in call

lines, you are usually in bad, bad shape here, at the 109s.

at the 5s and 10s and likely the 22s, and maybe the 33s, you are usually ahead on average, and usually ahead in a dominanating fashion.

so yeah, when you make a post to offer a line for a hand like this in the future, do consider the quality of your average opponent for the stakes and hand that you are commenting on. it will help you a lot.

citanul

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there is no problem, as i see it. you are wrong when you implicate that i am using advice from a high stakes game to use in a low stakes one. conversely, i'm actually a low stakes player posting an alternate line of play for a hand in a high stakes game. either you agree with it or you don't and you post the reasons why. it's that simple. the quality of player has been taken in to account on this play by me as well as the differences in play between the levels. my post is simply an alternate line of play, none of which, means it's the end all be all. if you want to point out a different line from mine, cool beans. otherwise, get over yourself.

[Oluwafemi]

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Gramps,

If I'm holding AK and the K flops I will check the turn for the reasons you mentioned. However, when the ace hits I honestly think we're better off just pounding away and stacking weaker aces. Thoughts?

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that's how my line went. obviously, i haven't taken the difference and quality of play into account though. wonder how i missed that?

[citanul]

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you are wrong when you implicate that i am using advice from a high stakes game to use in a low stakes one.

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i did not say that you were. i didn't even "implicate" it. i simply said that your post i was responding to exemplified the problem. i did not mean to say that you were actually DOING it, merely that your post showed WHY IT IS dangerous. my apologies if you were offended by that particular line. many other people DO use "fancy" plays from higher stakes games at their lower stakes games, and it is a problem.

citanul

[citanul]

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[ QUOTE ]
Gramps,

If I'm holding AK and the K flops I will check the turn for the reasons you mentioned. However, when the ace hits I honestly think we're better off just pounding away and stacking weaker aces. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's how my line went. obviously, i haven't taken the difference and quality of play into account though. wonder how i missed that?

[/ QUOTE ]

pounding away is all well and good until someone flashes a big red sign in front of your face that says "HEY YOU ARE BEAT ON THIS HAND." the lack of the ability to allow your opponent to flash such a sign in front of your face at a level where they will very, very rarely do it as a bluff, is what is missing from the line which just pushes on the turn. Additionally, at the 109s, even most of the fairly bad players who would call down value bets will not call on the turn if you push when they are beaten. That's what's missing from your line.

citanul

basically, pounding away shouldn't include "let them off cheap when they're behind, get stacked when they're ahead."