Islam

[New001]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. Just study how Julius Caesar subjected people. Human nature has not changes in 2000 years.

[/ QUOTE ]
His story ended really well, didn't it?

Clearly you aren't going to change your mind about this. You've got it locked in your head that everyone in these countries are lesser people and deserve to die to fight "terrorism."

[Cyrus]

Your post was a waste of cyber space.

Felix suggested we "nuke the islamo-fascists" as soon as an American city is nuked from terorists. I reminded him that the darn islamo-fascists are not a country with borders and a capital. Felix informed me that the primary backers of islamo-fascism are the Wahhabis, whose main support comes from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

So, I enquired why the hell are we not doing something abt those countries NOW, i.e. before an American city is nuked!

I'm waiting...

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
How kind of you to spare them the radiation.
***********************************************
Not really. I just don't want to put radioactive gas in my car. I have heard it is hell on engine gaskets. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Man sometimes you are just too funny.

Mack

[andyfox]

"There is simply no good reason to allow the backers of militant fascists to possess riches, especially when they utilize those riches to foment and fund attacks upon the free world of the West."

-Fomenting and funding attacks: What is the death toll from those attacks? Is it anywhere close to the amount of people that are starving to death in Niger? Shouldn't we be putting our efforts where they will do the most good in terms of human life?

-Possessing riches: Wouldn't it be better (i.e., cheaper in terms of human lives lost in the "takeover") to make it so that their source of riches, namely oil, isn't worth anything, or at least is worth less?

-Isn't this precisely their argument for attacking us (at least some of them, perhaps OBL being the best example), that there's simply no reason to allow us to continue to have our riches when we use it in ways about which he disapproves and to the detriment of other people?

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
-Fomenting and funding attacks: What is the death toll from those attacks? Is it anywhere close to the amount of people that are starving to death in Niger? Shouldn't we be putting our efforts where they will do the most good in terms of human life?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair question, but I consider it intolerable that we are attacked based on who we are. And that is precisely the reason many jihadists wish to attack the West. The recent al-Qaeda video with the guy with the Aussie-sounding sort of accent bespeaks this very thing: he said, "WE HATE YOUR INFIDELITY".


[ QUOTE ]
-Possessing riches: Wouldn't it be better (i.e., cheaper in terms of human lives lost in the "takeover") to make it so that their source of riches, namely oil, isn't worth anything, or at least is worth less?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but the clock is running and the oil is where it's at right now and in the near future. The mullahs cannot be allowed to get the Bomb and at the rate they are going that disaster will occur far sooner, and far more reliably, than alternate energy sources to supplant oil.

[ QUOTE ]
-Isn't this precisely their argument for attacking us (at least some of them, perhaps OBL being the best example), that there's simply no reason to allow us to continue to have our riches when we use it in ways about which he disapproves and to the detriment of other people?

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't. It's not mirror image because we have a live and let live attitude and they don't. We are willing to let everyone have their own religion (or none) but Islamofascists are not willing to allow anything other than the dominance of Islam over all religio-political aspects of human life.

So, what we "disapprove of" and what they "disaprove of" are two very different and probably irreconcilable things. We are liberal and tolerant whereas they approve ONLY of Islam and are willing to kill for it.

Put another way, Non-fascists and Fascists do not "approve" of each other's systems, but that is not the important point nor the best measure.

What OBL "approves" of or "disapproves of" is a rather meaningless measure. The guy is just flat-out wrong and is completely inflexible in his thinking. He is unwilling to permit anything other than pure Islamic fundamentalist-style Sharia rule--AND OBL is therefore attacking even other Muslims whom he views as less "pure".

Moreover, what we "disapprove of", primarily, is their attacking us. What they (the fanatics) "disapprove of" are things the rest of the world is unwilling to change or accede to in order to mollify them. We are fine with the following: they mind their business and we mind ours. They are NOT fine with that because they think Islam must inevitably rule over all the world.

I really don't think you think it is mirror image do you? We are FINE with buying their oil and letting them get rich off it if they don't attack us (or Israel). They are NOT fine with it, because among other things, they hate the pervasive influence of Western culture.

It's hard or impossible to reason with fanatics. What fanatics "approve of" versus what normal tolerant people "approve of" are two very different things. Heck what Hitler "approved of" should not be used as a debating point; you could almost substitute Hitler for OBL in your sentence and it would make about as much sense. His viewpoints and actions (Hitler's or OBL's) are just wrong and incongruent with any semblance of a workable, peaceful compromise with others. And he surely didn't "approve of" what we were doing with our riches. But when he started attacking others (and the Islamists are now attacking us), it's time to join the battle on the other side.

In the present case the "others" are everyone except fanatical Islamists. Yet they have a fair amount of tolerance and support amongst many more "moderate" Muslims and even from regimes (Iran, Syria, and ideologically from Wahhabist doctrine of Saudi Arabia spread via mosques funded by $80 billion in oil money).

So their intolerance is intolerable when it leads them to attack the West for not being like them.

If they persist, push will come to shove and they will lose (though all sides will lose too to an extent). And if push comes to shove (not saying it will for sure) then I say we win it decisively and take the oil too so the money is on our side as well.

If they manage to contain their fanaticism it is one thing. If they can't and keep attacking us, they will eventually get clobbered if that happens we should take their oil too.

[TransientR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Suppose you are 100% correct and that's where the root of the terror problem is. I will repeat my question :

Shouldn't the American administration be doing something about those guilty parties RIGHT NOW - rather than waiting for an American city to be nuked ?

And, refresh my memory, please, but aren't we the most friendly instead with those guys ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cyrus, this sort of thing is why much of the Middle East may eventually need to be taken over (and their oil actually STOLEN, for a change)--if they continue to support terrorism. Of course, such an undertaking would require the joint efforts of nearly all free Western countries. But as the Islamofascists continue to attack Western countries, and the price of oil continues to rise, I hold high hopes that most of Europe (and even the perfidious American Left) will eventually see the light and refuse to pay through the nose to people who want to destroy our way of life.

There is simply no good reason to allow the backers of militant fascists to possess riches, especially when they utilize those riches to foment and fund attacks upon the free world of the West.

If they are going to insist on being fanatical Islamo-fascists, well then, let them be broke Islamo-fascists, working in a McDonald's flipping Big Macs--instead of sitting around mulling over how they are going to Islamicize the world and supporting hate ideology in mosques and funding terrorists with more money than they could possibly spend in their lifetimes.

I'll have a double-quarter-pounder with lettuce and tomato, hold the mayo, please...and sorry your religio-fascist ideology didn't quite work out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take over "much of the Middle East" and steal their oil.

LMAO!

Thank goodness fruit loops like you and Felix just hang out at poker forum boards.

And I usually only hear the "Black Top Theory," advocated by semi-retarded cab drivers...

Frank

[Cyrus]

Let's say, for argument's sake and to make it quick, that I do not disagree with any of this:

-- I consider it intolerable that we are attacked based on who we are CHECK
-- The clock is running CHECK
-- Oil is where it's at right now CHECK
-- The mullahs cannot be allowed to get the Bomb CHECK
-- At the rate they are going that disaster will occur far sooner [than] alternate energy sources [are found] CHECK
-- It's hard or impossible to reason with fanatics CHECK
-- Their intolerance is intolerable CHECK

You still evade the question: Why then not attack Saudi Arabia and Pakistan right now?

Is this omission inconsistent with that you and Felix are saying or not ?

[Felix_Nietsche]

His story (Julius Caesar) ended really well, didn't it
************************************************** *****
After Caesar defeated Pompey to win the Roman civil war he decided to be magnanimous and show mercy on his political enemies instead of killing them. Then old saying that "nice guys finish last" applies here. Had Caesar applied his normal tactics against his enemies, his life would have been much different and there would have not been a second Roman civil war.


Clearly you aren't going to change your mind about this. You've got it locked in your head that everyone in these countries are lesser people and deserve to die to fight "terrorism."
************************************************** *********
Self defense is not a sin.
Killing those who want to kill you is not a sin.
Killing them better and in much LARGER numbers is not a sin.
I see no reason to be apologetic for my position should nuclear terrorism occur at the hands of the islamo-fascist.

As for them being "lesser people" those are YOUR words not mind. I do think their culture is decadent and is inferior to the western culture. If someone waved a magic wand where all the muslim parents died and their children were raised by western parents with western values.....the world would be a much better place. And when those children became adults they would be be a hell-of-a-lot nicer people than their parents were....

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
You still evade the question: Why then not attack Saudi Arabia and Pakistan right now?

Is this omission inconsistent with that you and Felix are saying or not ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't "evade" the question, Cyrus; I just wasn't addressing it. Rather I was addressing a related point.

To directly address that question: I don't think right now is an appropriate time to do something like that, for numerous reasons. A couple of those reasons are:

1) to give them a chance first, to reform or at least to stop supporting terror and teachings of hatred, or at minimum to contain their militant fanatics; and to see if democracy takes hold in Iraq

2) our own current unpreparedness for an occupation of a much greater area than Iraq (would require eager mobilization of most of the West, and the West won't be ready for that unless and until greater numbers of suicide attacks keep occurring, and the West finally gets SICK of it. If this occurs in conjunction with much higher oil prices, the critical level of exasperation may be reached sooner rather than later).

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Take over "much of the Middle East" and steal their oil.

LMAO!

[/ QUOTE ]

If they keep attacking us, and the price of oil keeps going up. it could actually become a good strategic idea. Why keep giving them billions to attack us with, anyway?

[ QUOTE ]
Thank goodness fruit loops like you and Felix just hang out at poker forum boards.


[/ QUOTE ]

You might be surprised.

[ QUOTE ]
And I usually only hear the "Black Top Theory," advocated by semi-retarded cab drivers...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't advocate nuking the Midle East into a parking lot. However if they keep producing and sending suicide bombers to the West, it might be time for a change. A VERY-BIG-CHANGE.