a common situation i may be misplaying

[damaniac]

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My question still stands, though: Are we planning on value-betting this river if checked to?

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Yes.

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This is not an obvious question and it is very crucial to understanding how the "villain-has-a-pocket-pair" situation plays out.

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Why not?

[chief444]

Ummm...why does everyone like the flop raise here?

edit...oh and as per a turn raise? No freakin way.

[callmedonnie]

raise preflop, raise the flop, raise turn but be prepared to fold if played back at on turn.

[damaniac]

HU easy call down, bet if checked to. I think people want to raise b/c of the third person. However, given the low nature of the board, I'd be willing to forgo protecting against the odd pair of 3's, 5's, or gutshots, since I don't think he has those very often (and the flush is getting about even value anyway), in order to save bets those (fairly numerous) times I am behind the PFR, as well as risk folding out KK-TT when he has those.

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Ummm...why does everyone like the flop raise here?

edit...oh and as per a turn raise? No freakin way.

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A flop raise is necessary. It is very possible that villain is playing a worse A and also perfectly possible that villain is overplaying a hand like K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Once he bets into you on the turn, however, calling down is probably the best option.

I expect to see A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or some similar hand most of the time here.

[chief444]

Yeah, in a 7 SB pot on this board one person behind isn't much of a concern. If he's got 4-5 outs with a pair or gutshot or whatever you're not really losing money anyway...a tiny bit maybe. And if he does call raising the turn then does become an option.

[chief444]

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A flop raise is necessary.

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OK. Why?

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A flop raise is necessary.

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OK. Why?

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Just calling the flop gives UTG+2 the proper odds to draw to his 5 outer here. This, combined with the fact that there is good chance that you are already ahead, added to the chance that SB may have a drawing hand, means not raising this flop will cost you too many pots.

Much of the time SB will think you raised with your flush draw to get a free card, and will keep betting into you with what is usually a losing hand.

[W. Deranged]

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A flop raise is necessary.

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OK. Why?

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It's interesting how similar discussions often come up in multiple posts on the same day.

Here, since the pot has a bunch of bets in it already, I am making every effort I can to fold out random wheel draws, backdoor flush draws, and even random pair hands with set and or runner-runner outs. One thing I don't want to have happen is some junk hand call the flop ("because I didn't put you on an A...") and pick up a backdoor diamond draw, for example. With 9 bets in already I'm goin' to town.

I also really like the idea of preemptively charging any diamond draws that are hanging around behind me.

If I'm continuing with this hand I want it to be heads-up (for equity and tactical reasons) and so raising seems significantly better than calling here.

Though, as I noted in the A8s thread on the front page right now, I think it is important to consider why it is that we are usually automatically raising (particularly weak) top pair hands on the flop.

[damaniac]

I would think more about raising if the flop were something like AJ9, since it is a lot more likely the third player has a pair or gutshot. Given the low flop, I think it is considerably less likely the third player has a piece of the board. That, plus the fact that we are way behind the pfr quite a bit (and way ahead of a hand we don't want him to fold the rest), means that we can forgo the limited protection option in order to save/make more vs. the pfr.