An AKo disagreement

[nsj]

Push and take it down.

I don't understand advocating a raise to 1800 or 2K and pushing ANY flop. His CO open-limp is most likely to be suited or connected cards, so we're pricing in a speculative hand by not raising him off the pot and then pushing regardless of the board?

Pushing your stack in with A-high on a 79T board against a limp-caller in the CO is stupid. Sorry.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
Push and take it down.

I don't understand advocating a raise to 1800 or 2K and pushing ANY flop. His CO open-limp is most likely to be suited or connected cards, so we're pricing in a speculative hand by not raising him off the pot and then pushing regardless of the board?

Pushing your stack in with A-high on a 79T board against a limp-caller in the CO is stupid. Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I didn't recommend pushing any flop. I said a standard continuation bet.

HUUUUGE difference.

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
You think a player who is unwilling to bet a PP is willign to risk his stack calling it? And you think hes MORE likely to call the push?

You also think a small PP will call the raise but fold to a low flop (whether or not he has a midpair, overpair, etc)?

Since we miss the flop most the time, i dont rely on him folding to our continuation bet when hes already invested so much, and the times we hit we're letting him out cheap. I feel a raise reeks of a high A and we're losing our action on the good flops and dropping half our stacks on continuation bets the other half.

Also, if the raise is for elimination purposes, i dont think theres ANY hand hes folding to a raise but not a push, but i think theres MANY hands he folding to a push but not a raise.
The more I analyze it the more i like the push. You have more FE which is what we need against PPs, since theyre ahead and we dont want to lose action on good flops and give action on bad ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, a player who limps with 66, will call a standard raise with it, and hope to hit his set.

No, I never said he'd fold on a low flop, I said he'll often fold on the flop when he misses. When you raise preflop out of position, and the flop comes 2 T Q and you bet again, how does he feel about his hand with 66? HE DUMPS IT.

This is the real benefit of being the aggressor. you don't have to hit your hand to win, you just need to convince your opponent he's beaten to scoop the pot! And MOST of the time his small pair will be facing overcards.

And no, the raise is not for elimination purposes. It is purely a raise for value, and to pick up the initiative in the hand.

I think a shove looks weak, and increases a call from a hand like 66, not decreases.

(not I'm using 66 as an example hand, I'm not trying to say that's what I think he has)

You have a hand. When that happens (and man it doesn't happen often enough!), you need to make money with it. So play it in a way that helps you collect the most chips. Thinking about FE here is 180 degrees from solid tourney strategy (in my mind anyway).

-Scott

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a shove looks weak, and increases a call from a hand like 66, not decreases.

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you'd love to get called by a hand "like 66." b/c in my book, that inclueds KQ, AT, etc.

or do you mean specifically that low pockets are calling here but medium A's are not?

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think a shove looks weak, and increases a call from a hand like 66, not decreases.

[/ QUOTE ]

you'd love to get called by a hand "like 66." b/c in my book, that inclueds KQ, AT, etc.

or do you mean specifically that low pockets are calling here but medium A's are not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, when lp limps but calls a push, it has been my experience the majority of the time it is a small-mid pair, AK, AA, or KK. The only hands he's really ahead of that'll call here is AQ or maybe AJs, but when the BB push is called, the smallest percentage of time it's AJ or AQ.

-Scott

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You think a player who is unwilling to bet a PP is willign to risk his stack calling it? And you think hes MORE likely to call the push?

You also think a small PP will call the raise but fold to a low flop (whether or not he has a midpair, overpair, etc)?

Since we miss the flop most the time, i dont rely on him folding to our continuation bet when hes already invested so much, and the times we hit we're letting him out cheap. I feel a raise reeks of a high A and we're losing our action on the good flops and dropping half our stacks on continuation bets the other half.

Also, if the raise is for elimination purposes, i dont think theres ANY hand hes folding to a raise but not a push, but i think theres MANY hands he folding to a push but not a raise.
The more I analyze it the more i like the push. You have more FE which is what we need against PPs, since theyre ahead and we dont want to lose action on good flops and give action on bad ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, a player who limps with 66, will call a standard raise with it, and hope to hit his set.

No, I never said he'd fold on a low flop, I said he'll often fold on the flop when he misses. When you raise preflop out of position, and the flop comes 2 T Q and you bet again, how does he feel about his hand with 66? HE DUMPS IT.

This is the real benefit of being the aggressor. you don't have to hit your hand to win, you just need to convince your opponent he's beaten to scoop the pot! And MOST of the time his small pair will be facing overcards.

And no, the raise is not for elimination purposes. It is purely a raise for value, and to pick up the initiative in the hand.

I think a shove looks weak, and increases a call from a hand like 66, not decreases.

(not I'm using 66 as an example hand, I'm not trying to say that's what I think he has)

You have a hand. When that happens (and man it doesn't happen often enough!), you need to make money with it. So play it in a way that helps you collect the most chips. Thinking about FE here is 180 degrees from solid tourney strategy (in my mind anyway).

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how I feel also. I'd play it this way with AK, but I'd check with AA, KK, QQ, maybe even JJ depending on how I felt about CO. With AK you have to put that bet out there, and continuation bet the flop pretty much no matter what happens.


Villian was not an idiot by the way. He probably had a good table read that he'd get two callers at most to see the flop. He pretty much played that hand perfectly, he induced your all in, or at least completly caught you off guard, with huge odds against you. And you sucked out. It happens, but he literally got pretty much the best thing to happen he could (isolate against a dominated hand).

[Lloyd]

This is a pretty tricky hand because of the stack sizes. I personally do not like the line of "normal raise followed by continuation bet". That would require the hero to put 2/3 of his stack into the pot and then what, fold to a push? We'd have odds to call that with two overs. And I don't see the villain calling a normal size raise with a pair for set value. There isn't any set value there with these stacks.

So, the way I see it we have three choices:

1) Push pre-flop;
2) Make a normal raise and push the flop if called;
3) Check and see a cheap flop.

The decision is almost entirely read dependent. If he's tricky, I might just check and see a flop. Harrington refers to this as reducing variance. If I've seen him limp a bit, especially in late position, then pushing is a no-brainer. I really cannot make a good argument for a normal raise followed by a push.

I have no idea what I'd do absent a read. Honestly, I think this is a situation where you just have to be there to feel the game and base your decision off of intuition. Both lines have their merits and are appropriate under the right conditions.

[SoBeDude]

I personally do not like the line of "normal raise followed by continuation bet". That would require the hero to put 2/3 of his stack into the pot

Your math is funny.

Hero has 6,500 chips, big blind is 400.

So a standard raise is 1000-1200 chips. that leaves him with 5300. Now on the flop he bets 1200, leaving him 4100, and 2/3rds of his stack remains. or he can bet 1600, leaving 3700 and still more than 1/2 his stack. Or he can bet 2000 and still leave himself 1/2 his stack.

So how you getting to him having to put 2/3 of his stack in with a normal raise and a continuation bet?

-Scott

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally do not like the line of "normal raise followed by continuation bet". That would require the hero to put 2/3 of his stack into the pot

Your math is funny.

Hero has 6,500 chips, big blind is 400.

So a standard raise is 1000-1200 chips. that leaves him with 5300. Now on the flop he bets 1200, leaving him 4100, and 2/3rds of his stack remains. or he can bet 1600, leaving 3700 and still more than 1/2 his stack. Or he can bet 2000 and still leave himself 1/2 his stack.

So how you getting to him having to put 2/3 of his stack in with a normal raise and a continuation bet?

-Scott

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With one limper out of position I'm not raising to 1000-1200 chips. That's begging to be called. I'd make it somewhere between 1600 and 2000, and I've seen 2000 mentioned on this post a copule of times.

If we make it 2000 and get called, there is 4200 in the pot. If we make a continuation bet of 2100, we've put in 4100 of our 6500 stack - 63%.

If we make it 1600 and get called, there is 3400 in the pot and with a 1/2 continuation bet we've put in just over 50%. If he puts us all-in for our remaining 3200 we'd be getting over 3 to 1 on our call making it a really tough decision.