Top Set versus Agro unknown - Page 3

Chuckles1248 · #21 08-04-2005, 12:22 PM

*grunch*

I think I'm capping this flop, especially with 2 spades on the board, since flush draws aren't going to fold anyway, might as well charge them as much as possible before they get there.
The spade on the turn is frowntown, I don't know if I would be able to cap the turn in that situation, but it is probably right, given the size of the pot and the chance that he doesn't have a flush or an unlikely straight.
The river check-raise to me means he made his flush on the turn and when you capped it he realized he could get an extra bet out of it by checking to you.

britspin · #22 08-04-2005, 12:27 PM

I'm a stranger, so this is to test how wide of the mark I am as much as anything!

Assuming normality, preflop UTG+1 coldcall raise and not cap reraise indicates a range of hands inc any PP, AK-AJs. I'm discounting AA/KK/QQ as more likely to cap.

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Flop: (15 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls.

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OK now I'm looking at 33, 44, AK/AQspades or poss AJ.

I'd cap here, though there might be an argument for flat calling and raising his lead on a safe card on turn.

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Turn: (10.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, Given his 3-bet on flop and willingness to re-raise here I'm torn between calling initial bet and raising. If I do raise once he three-bets you've got to think you're behind. On balance, I'd probably just call his bet.

Either way, after this, absent read of looseness, I'm going into checkcall and hoping the river pairs.

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River: (18.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls.

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Ugh. Nasty. I'm already in c/c mode by this point, so I'm checking this. I think he's nutted, can't believe you're raising him and is checking to try and get an extra bet out of you.

I put him on nut flush 7/10 AK/AQ
I put him on non nut flush 1/10 KQ
I put him on KK 1/10 (just cause of the river c/r)
I put him on AJ with Ace of spade 1/10, which is why I'm calling not folding.

britspin · #23 08-04-2005, 12:38 PM

A8? Wow.

I'd have left at least 4 BB in his pocket compared to you!

I think that's got to be at the bottom end of the range of possibilities though. I put the lone A spade as a 1/10 shot in my post- how often do you think YHIG here?

tiltaholic · #24 08-04-2005, 12:42 PM

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A8? Wow.

I'd have left at least 4 BB in his pocket compared to you!

I think that's got to be at the bottom end of the range of possibilities though. I put the lone A spade as a 1/10 shot in my post- how often do you think YHIG here?

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extremely often.

tiltaholic · #25 08-04-2005, 12:44 PM

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With the PFR and 3 bet call I'd put him on AA - QQ here.

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People PFR UTG with much more then AA - QQ.

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With no reads on a new person I give them TAG credit until they show me some trash! I play a little too tight anyway. Either way with top set I'm capping until I see the flush draw, then I'd hope for the board pair. Looking back though, that hand read is way too tight, even for me.

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1. This is a horrendous mistake made by you (the bolded part) every time you face new players. You should give less credit up front until given a reason to suspect otherwise. You are leaving lots of money on the table.

2. And this back and forth is amiss. If he's a TAG, he is raising AND 3-betting a wider range than if he's a loose passive. If he's a loose-passive, he is both raising (and more importantly 3-betting) a much smaller range. The fact that you are giving him TAG credit would imply a wider range of hands, whereas you should be giving him "loose-passive-credit" in which case his hand range narrows more (as you initially stated.) So, yes and no.

does that make sense?

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i'm an idiot. there was no 3-bet pf. but what i said is still true.

DeathDonkey · #26 08-04-2005, 01:12 PM

You played this perfect. I'm scared by some of the replies here, I thought micro was doing quite well recently actually. One guy wants to check behind on the river but only because he sees that you got checkraised so he would avoid the "obvious checkraise". Everyone else wants to cap the river after we get checkraised again after capping the turn. Either he is an idiot (which he is from the results) or you are beat. But not based on the turn action, based on the river checkraise, so you call and see.

Also the call the 3 bet on the flop is pretty standard for me.

-DeathDonkey

bottomset · #27 08-04-2005, 01:48 PM

very standard play here

some of these responses are really off, either weaktight, or overaggro

and ppl coldcall in UTG1 with far more than just the big suited aces, and PP's ..

McGahee · #28 08-04-2005, 01:54 PM

Yeah, smoothcalling these flop 3-bets makes me wet.
It always will as long as I read 25 posts per day that say: "3-bet flop. Call down or fold if capped. If he just calls, lead the turn".

FWIW I'm not sure I'd cap this turn without a read and no overlay from other donks still in the hand, but I like this hand overall.

McGahee · #29 08-04-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

And this back and forth is amiss. If he's a TAG, he is raising AND 3-betting a wider range than if he's a loose passive. If he's a loose-passive, he is both raising (and more importantly 3-betting) a much smaller range. The fact that you are giving him TAG credit would imply a wider range of hands, whereas you should be giving him "loose-passive-credit" in which case his hand range narrows more (as you initially stated.) So, yes and no.

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Thank you. I've tried explaining this ~4,000 times in the last few months and I've always felt like I was talking to a brick wall.