McEvoy's Cardplayer quiz #5

[MLG]

I think dismissing the idea of raising preflop here is a little narrowminded. The problem with never raising preflop with this category of hands is that you narrow your raising range so much that the times you do raise it becomes very easy for your opponents to play against you. KQs would play fine against a limp calling range from one guy, and playing a medium sized pot against 1-2 opponents in position isn't a bad spot to be in either. Even if its slightly worse from an EV perspective than limping, I think preventing information leaks makes the raise worth it some percentage of the time.

[DarrenX]

Preflop I limp 95%, raise 5%. As played on the flop I'd probably check 70% of the time, bet 30%. And as played on the turn I'm friggin' FOLDING MY 2nd NUT FLUSH!!! UGH! But you have to. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[curtains]

I'm not dismissing the idea of raising preflop. I don't think its terrible, I just usually don't do it.

[SoBeDude]

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I'm not dismissing the idea of raising preflop. I don't think its terrible, I just usually don't do it.

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So you've essentially converted JJ in to 44? Doesn't sound like a +EV converstion.

-Scott

[burningyen]

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So you've essentially converted JJ in to 44?

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Wrong thread?

[woodguy]

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I can't imagine ever making a raise after limpers in NL holdem for the sole purpose of "buying the button".

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Even with a hand like KQs that's bound to flop a draw, so position is absolutely critital as to the cost of playing the hand?

I don't understand that.

Regards,
Woodguy

[SoBeDude]

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Again this play seems totally standard to me. I have no idea why everyone wants to raise preflop and bet the flop.

Betting the flop I'm especially opposed to as you are allowing someone to destroy the value of your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you make a healthy raise preflop, you're going to be HU or at most 3 handed. and in THAT situation, I'm betting that flop like 90% of the time.

The essential problem with limping with JJ, then checking the flop is that you're turning in to a hand that has to hit the flop in order for you to scoop the pot. This is terrible IMO.

JJ is a solid hand that wins way more than its share of pots if PLAYED WELL. limping and checking is NOT playing JJ well.

Lets look at a few scenarios:

You raise hard (say 5-6x BB), all but one fold. flop is Kxx. checked to you, you bet, opponent folds, you scoop the pot.

Conversely:

You limp with JJ, 7 to see the flop. flop is Kxx...you're hand is NO GOOD, you check-fold. so instead of scooping a decent pot, you lost. thats a significant swing in chips.

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

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So you've essentially converted JJ in to 44?

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Wrong thread?

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No, I'm saying he's essentially playing JJ for set value, which is really really weak-tight and all around bad IMO.

-Scott

[PennDisc]

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I can't imagine ever making a raise after limpers in NL holdem for the sole purpose of "buying the button".

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I agree, however it was the OP's point that you could win the blinds + limps, and fall on buying the button as a backup which is a "great thing." I was simply pointing out that while you might buy the button, you will certainly not fold out the limpers unless you make a bigger than normal raise. (And I'm not willing to risk a bigger than normal raise with this hand in this position with the stacks this deep, especially because I really want to see the flop.) Buying the button isn't as great a thing as the OP was suggesting.

This isn't to say that raising has no merit. Raising with this relatively strong hand could isolate the limpers, making it much more likely that you can win the pot with a bet on the flop, or that your hand will be best should a K or Q flop.

Raising for the reason of charging Ax[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is incorrect though as (a) you're currently behind to this hand, (b)if a guy with this hand already limped, he's likely to see the flop anyway (unless you make a large raise), (c) the value of your hand is drastically reduced if Ax[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is out there. If for some reason someone had flashed Ax[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] then it might be a fold.

[burningyen]

I think you're referring to quiz #4, not quiz #5.