A hand sweated by Joe Tall

[SCfuji]

its also possible that MPs river lead is an 8x hand that doesnt want the river to get checked through because ppl are afraid of the ace.

MP has an 8 and utg still leads. he slow plays on the turn to keep hero around and is planning to raise the river.

utg checks on the river, MP says "doh" and bets.

[ALL1N]

Clearly the turn call is a mistake. The river seems a little silly too, and this talk of putting UTG on an ace?? I can't see him having an ace here anywhere near enough to make this play.

[flawless_victory]

turn is an easy raise.
river is a call (or fold)...
basically this hand was butchered pretty bad...
saying UTG likely has A7 is ridiculous... his has something like J6 or 44 the vast majority of the time.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]

turn is an easy raise.
river is a call (or fold)...
basically this hand was butchered pretty bad...
saying UTG likely has A7 is ridiculous... his has something like J6 or 44 the vast majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the type of post that exemplifies what has led to the demise of this forum. Granted, we are all guilty of it. Just slam the player, drop the ABC, and move on but this hand is not ABC, thus, its large interest. However, instead of adding to the issue I’ve been trying to get more involved lately, post more and stay as positive in my discussions. There are other bad habits being reciprocated on this forum that I’ve noticed in the past few months. Instead of quoting someone that hasn’t really added anything, which is the weakest new trend on this board besides “FYP”, try to add something to the spirit of the debate.

These are some of the reasons, besides the obvious PT/bad beat/junk posts, that have created a lack of interest by some great posters on this forum.
_________________________________________

Back to the hand, I’ll add some final thoughts and be done. Granted I was able to see a few hands played by the opponents so I was able to develop a light-read of the type of players they were. I remember bottomset having good position on the player to his right, which was a little aggressive leading to suspect trickiness. I also remember when UTG open limped and MP over limped, that it was a bread and butter situation for bottomset. As we had a weak player limping in front of a suspect-LAG player who would have likely raised many hands to try to isolate a weak player. Bottomset had a strong hand with position on these two, a perfect scenario.

Bottomset can correct me if I’m wrong as he can look up the players in his DB from the HH but I feel I’m correct here.

So what type of hands to these players limp here?

UTG: Ax as we all know they love any ace I've seen this right up to the 30/60 shorthanded games, broadway connector/gaper, any suited connect/gap, any 2 suited.
MP: weak broadway-offsuit hand, weak suited broadways Kxs-Jxs, suited connectors/gapers, less likely an Ace as he may have raised it here nor pocket pair greater than 66.

Now the flop hits, bottomset bets, these two call.

What type of hands did they limp with that they called a 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] here?

UTG: A6, A5, A7, Ax, any two over cards, two :spades:, two :diamonds: or a made hand like the nuts, set (unlikely made that is).
MP: I nearly give the same range for MP as it’s seems like a good range. A6, A5, A7, Ax, any two over cards, two :spades:, two :diamonds: or a made hand like the nuts, set (unlikely made that is).

Turn pairs the 8, and UTG leads out. This is where I feel he shows his A5, 6, 7 as he feels he has the best hand w/2-pair an a Ace and if the board double pairs he could the best hand there also and he is looking to use scare card value to take this down. Mp calls – this rings little bells as he could be slow playing trips or a monster. However, a weak [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] draw is still a strong possibility. A raise on the turn, as discussed, is warranted.

River comes A no flush. UTG checks fearing the slowplayed 8 which I see over an over the lack of value betting; what I describe as “river-fear” or he just plain missed his hand and now MP bets. How many times have you called the river seeing a busted flush draw when the player just leads out in front of you? Too many. Therefore, I feel bottomset’s hand is showdown worthy and will often get a weak player like UTG to fear the worst and fold a better hand like an Ace so if I'm going to a showdown, I like the raise.

Thanks for all who entered good responses here. Interesting hand none-the less.

[DMBFan23]

hey Joe,

just to clarify - are you raising the river based on the way the turn played out? or are you saying that you would also raise the river had you raised the turn and the action went the same?

because I don't know about 3/6, but at 5/10 I have noticed that against turn stop and go's I am almost always still good here versus typical players, whereas I I'm virtually NEVER good against the river stop and go in this spot.

I have to say I would raise the turn, but then after that I'd have to fold on the river, or MAYBE call.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the type of post that exemplifies what has led to the demise of this forum. Granted, we are all guilty of it. Just slam the player, drop the ABC, and move on but this hand is not ABC, thus, its large interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Joe,

Sorry you feel this way - it is frustrating to see a post like that after dozens of thorough discussion posts, but IMHO there is still lots of great discussion on HUSH, despite the increase in less sophisticated posts.

About the hand...

I really like your analysis. Some of the ranges are a little tighter than I would have put them on, but you clearly had a good hold on what types of hands these players would limp with, and knowledge from watching hands that we were not privy to, and you utilized it quite well.

The only point where I guess we disagree is the river - too many players get "river fear" as you call it, but IMHO it is rarely when they improve on the river card. Even if his check is a scared ace, the check means he is trying to get to SD and will also be unlikely to fold it.

Very interesting discussion, welcome back to the forum - hopefully you'll stick around [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Surf

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I cant remember what happened on the turn, I don't think I said anything as I like to see how the hand is played and discuss it later or don't talk unless asked.

On the river, you still do not want an over call from a hand like A5,6,7 which as this hand played out, sure seemed so from UTG. If I remember, Mp was a little tricky for the brief amount of hands that were played against him as I remember bottomset's position at the table being good. Which is something I always consider and talk about. Not only table selection, seat position is key to winning poker.

It is an interesting hand, and I welcome all discussion.



[/ QUOTE ]


I think you're out of your mind for thinking UTG will fold an A at even 30/60, let alone 3/6

[bottomset]

UTG is 47/4 over 70ish hands, bet or folded all of his rivers so far

MP ended up being 24/6 over 60ish hands

this hand happened pretty early(first orbit or 2) on to them being there

I'm not sure what lead us to believe MP was the tricky type
and going back through the hands he went to SD he is def. the passive type, one hand he had JJ on a Thigh nofd,no sd board, 3bet the flop, bet the turn(added a fd), checked the river when it paired the T and completed the bd fd

he did like to got to sd with anypair though, and got fancy with AA that flopped a set(just called a raise in the SB, cc flop, cr the turn)

oops, the read on UTG was good, but MP kinda tricked us