Matusow hand analysis @ Final Table - 2nd hand

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
You're just trolling, Vince.

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I was going to reply to you Howard but becaue of your response I think you are "STILL" the same ASS you've allways been. I guess you will never change. You should be proud though. More and more you are becoming the Paul Phillips you truly want to be.

vince

[Howard Treesong]

Do you seriously contend that Mike should muck the KK? Really? Or are you just posting that to stir the pot? If so, it's a troll post; and I don't mean that other than descriptively. And what, pray tell, does Paul have to do with this discussion?

I don't tend to call you names, Vince. I can't say I've never done it, but I suspect you've cursed at me a dozen times for every time I've cursed at you.

[pokergripes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're just trolling, Vince.

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I was going to reply to you Howard but becaue of your response I think you are "STILL" the same ASS you've allways been. I guess you will never change. You should be proud though. More and more you are becoming the Paul Phillips you truly want to be.

vince

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, not every exchange needs to immediately deteriorate this way. Howard, Vince's post (despite being a bad read of the possible hand range) is hardly "trolling" relative to the kind of crap that gets posted around here. Vince, Howard is by no means "still" an "ass", that's an overstatement of the case...many of his posts, in fact, are quite pithy and entertaining. So, play nice girls [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Deftoner]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're just trolling, Vince.

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I was going to reply to you Howard but becaue of your response I think you are "STILL" the same ASS you've allways been. I guess you will never change. You should be proud though. More and more you are becoming the Paul Phillips you truly want to be.

vince

[/ QUOTE ]

You choose one part of his post to reply too and then insult him and he's the ass? Get real. If you actually believe in what you posted about mucking kings, then defend it and add something meaningful to the discussion.

Your such a weiner vince.

[Vincent Lepore]

[ QUOTE ]
AKs, QQ and perhaps more are also possibilities.


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It's the second hand of the final table of the WSOP of which first prize is 7.5m plus who knows how much more doing other things the championship brings. You are sitting in early position with a medium stack but quite comfortable with respect to blinds and ante's. Blinds are 50-100k with 10k ante's. You have around 3.5m. The player in front of you, earlier than you, doubles the blinds. You look down and see A,Ks. Do you like it? Do you re-raise a third of your stack with 5 players plus the original raiser yet to act?

In my opinion making a raise like that in this situation is No Limit holdem tournament play suicide. How about Q,Q? again if you are on a suicide mission in this event then you should play your queens in a similar manner that Lazar played his Aces. Lazar effectively told everyone when he raised a third of his stack "hey I got a hand. You want to play well come on down but I ain't going anywhere".

Matusow might as well of had any to random cards the way he played his hand by moving in. What hands would call him? Only kings or Aces and if he was called it was 6 to 1 that he was called by Aces. So moving in with Kings in this situation was about the same as moving in with 7,2o. He did what Sklansky advises everyone to avoid. He turned Kings into 7,2o. And he did it at the final table of the biggest event in Poker tournament history. Now he really has something to whine about. I can just hear him "what poor luck.. it always happens to me..Oh, weel he must do something right. He got there. for that I say congradulations.

Yes, I think a great player could lay down Kings in this situation. Could Matusow or me? Probably not. That does not mean that Treesong really knows anything about anything or that the correct play is to muck or move in. I expected to discuss this with others not have some big mouth claim I was trolling. Of course Phillips might have thrown him a few bucks to keep his eye out for me. Talk about a troll.

Vince

[Howard Treesong]

[ QUOTE ]
It's the second hand of the final table of the WSOP of which first prize is 7.5m plus who knows how much more doing other things the championship brings. You are sitting in early position with a medium stack but quite comfortable with respect to blinds and ante's. Blinds are 50-100k with 10k ante's. You have around 3.5m. The player in front of you, earlier than you, doubles the blinds. You look down and see A,Ks. Do you like it? Do you re-raise a third of your stack with 5 players plus the original raiser yet to act?

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Remember, you're in a tournament where seven of the first eight hands were raised, and two of those reraised. Lazar can and should be reasonably confident, if he has AKs, that it is the best hand. There are now $400,000 worth of chips on the table, well worth stealing. It's more than ten per cent of Lazar's stack. Lazar's raising range is much much wider than AA; and it clearly includes hands like QQ and AsKs.

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion making a raise like that in this situation is No Limit holdem tournament play suicide. How about Q,Q? again if you are on a suicide mission in this event then you should play your queens in a similar manner that Lazar played his Aces. Lazar effectively told everyone when he raised a third of his stack "hey I got a hand. You want to play well come on down but I ain't going anywhere".

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That sort of move is routine, IMO. What's your alternative to playing QQ or AsKs from that spot, Vince? Mucking them? Smoothcalling? That option may be near and dear to your heart, but both hands won't mind taking the pot right then and there. These players had played long hours with one another the day before, and Lazar is well aware of how aggressive guys like Matusow and Black are.

[ QUOTE ]
Matusow might as well of had any to random cards the way he played his hand by moving in. What hands would call him? Only kings or Aces and if he was called it was 6 to 1 that he was called by Aces. So moving in with Kings in this situation was about the same as moving in with 7,2o. He did what Sklansky advises everyone to avoid. He turned Kings into 7,2o. And he did it at the final table of the biggest event in Poker tournament history. Now he really has something to whine about. I can just hear him "what poor luck.. it always happens to me..Oh, weel he must do something right. He got there. for that I say congradulations.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's against a player, Lazar, who called off $5 million in chips a couple of hours later in consecutive hands with Ks9s and QT. Reraises were relatively commonplace; by my quick count, six out of the first thirty hands were RERAISED. That suggests that Lazar's reraise hand range is MUCH wider than AA or KK. It's more like any pair larger than 9 and any suited broadway cards. Six in the first thirty.

Your style is much tighter than that; and it's a fair strategy. But I suggest that it's one that gets eaten alive by the blinds. Look at the hand histories. Playing the way you recommend, you would play a hand approximately . . . never.

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Yes, I think a great player could lay down Kings in this situation. Could Matusow or me? Probably not.

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I think that almost nobody on the planet is mucking KK here. In hands like Lederer v. Boubli at the Aviation (where Boubli famously laid down KK), the hand was bet in such a way as to generate far more useful information. Lazar's stack is not deep enough to do that here: he may not be 100% committed with his first raise, but there's no amount Mike can raise that Lazar will call without being committed. There's thus no possibility of Mike betting in such a way as to discern AA and potentially muck to a fourth raise.

[familyteeth]

Tommy Vu must have had a similar thought,
Raise, reraise allin and Tommy agonizes and lays down KK
vs JJ and QQ
flop K rag rag turn K
he actually started crying

Tommy's stack was 156k at the time, 2nd or 3rd at his table and he was covered, can't remember more details, but Brandon Lee was in MP at the time, but I was shocked at the laydown

[teamdonkey]

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Raise - Reraise - what hands do you put Lazaar on? Aces! muck the kings.

Vince

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"Phil Ivey has the button in seat 6, he comes in for a standard raise, Black reraises, and Ivey pulls some chips from his stack to shuffle them in one hand while he holds his cards in the other. Ivey counts out the chips and reraises right back at Black (I believe the amount is $500,000). Andrew Black, who is wearing his sunglasses upside-down (Marcel Luske-style), is taking his time here. Black moves all in"

raise, re-raise, re-re-raise, re-re-re-raise all in - what hands do you put Black on here?

<font color="white">after Ivey folded he showed him A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]...</font>

there was enough re-raising going on that there was absolutely no reason to put Lazaar on only AA.

[3rdEye]

No one is folding KK preflop. All the money is getting in on the flop anyway if it doesn't get in preflop.

[Fletch46]

It wouldn't be the first time or second that someone folded K's at a final table and the person who did went on to win.