AQ for no raise (MichaelD)?

[Dynasty]

"Big" to me means at least top pair or a good draw. "Big" would not include holding TT on a Q,9,4 flop.

[Kevin J]

My main point was that if we are going to nitpick tough decisions, let's make the decisions where the answer matters.

I agree with you that most of the money is made post-flop. But if you are regularily throwing away cleary profitable hands (in this case AQo), then this will eventually add up to become meaningful.

[Kevin J]

J-V-

I don't recall a single hand I've ever posted about that involved folding pre-flop. I agree with you that the majority of the money is made after-the-flop. One reason I posted this is because I am trying to find more hands to play, not less and I wanted to find out if there is any merit to laying down a hand like AQ pre-flop from early position. And if so, understand it.

[MichaelD]

Kevin

Don't get me wrong, I do not ALWAYS fold this hand. I will fold it often though if I am first or second in. It just does not rank that high on my list of hands that I have found profitable from early position.

I never said I was right, but as your other post demonstrates by listing my exact words, I did give my reasons for it.

I have heard some say I am to tight.

I have also heard some say that every post that revovles around me is regarding pre-flop play and how tight it is.

To those who say these things, I say I may be tight from early position but I will play a great deal many hands from later position if the situation dictates. If you take a poll of players who have played against me for an extended period of time, they will either tell you I am a rock or a maniac, depending on their perspective or how observant they actually are. My own belief is that I play extremely tight up front, but as I gain a positional advantage I push my edge as much as I can possibly push it. From my experience, position is extremely valuable in this game.

As far as what JV says, I agree 100%. The real profit in the play of hands is made post flop. Of this, there can be very little debate and I have never claimed otherwise. All I did was respond to a post Kevin had made in which I presented a possible alternative action that could have avoided a tricky post flop situation. That is all, nothing more. I have found myself in situations similar to the one he describes too many times, and I prefer to play most of my hands with position these days as much as possible.

If there is doubt as to whether my thoughts have even the least bit of validity, then I would suggest going to COmmerce, or Aruba in peak season, or anywhere else the game plays over aggresssive with 6-7 players seeing the flop every hand for 3-4 bets. Sit down in these games and play AQ off under the gun or in early position. Play it anyway you like - raise it, limp with it, straddle it - I don't care - but do't fold it.

Play it and keep track of it for 5000 hours, 5000 times you play it - whatever. Don't run a computer simulation on it - they are very valuable but not completely accurate. They are not thinking human beings who are adjusting based on emotion. I have yet to see a computer go on full blown tilt - and I have yet to meet a player who does not go on some form of tilt.

Anyway, play this hand in an overaggressive game and see what happens. Watch as your bankroll requirements shoot higher than you ever thought possible, and then report back to me and let me know how long you lasted before you considered that folding this hand pre-flop for no raise was POSSIBLY an option you should consider in some situations.

From my experience, poker is a very situational game, and folding this hand pre-flop is a definite reality for me if the situation warrants it. I know the situation Kevin described in another post was not described as a maniacal game, but Kevin stated

"To be honest, I don't believe I've ever played in a game where I even considered mucking AQ first in. That's how clear cut I always thought it was. "

Well, I have played in many games where I have mucked it. As I said, position is of extreme importance to me. I prefer playing hands that may not be nearly as strong as AQ, but give them to me with position every time, show me a flop and lets go from there.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

[astroglide]

tth sims do go on tilt, will recognize when others go on tilt, vary their play, and recognize when others are varying their play.

even if the tth sim is 50% *WRONG*, the hand is still showing a signifigant profit.

folding AQo up front is a bad move in any game so long as you're capable of playing it well under stress. it's pretty clear that if you're losing money with it, you're playing it wrong.

[Boris]

I think you place too much value on position in limit poker. Sure, if you're playing pot limit or no limit then of course you fold the A-Qo in early, or even middle position (assuming you're not playing with a short stack). But in limit poker A-Q is usually a real nice hand that is fairly easy to play up front. I'm not sure what hands you add in late position instead of playing A-Q up front. The hands must be real pieces of cheese and I doubt they are worth more than the A-Q up front. I'll take the A-Q up front over the cheese in late position and day.

You also talked about not playing A-Q in very loose and very aggressive games. Fine. But in these games position matters very little. The reason to fold A-Q is not because you will be out of position. The reason to fold is because you will be in situations where you flop a good hand (like top pair) with no redraw and will be taking alot of heat with alot of combined outs against you. In tighter games the value of late position increases. But then in these games so does the value of A-Q.

[PokerPrince]

I don't see a problem with folding AQo in EP if the game conditions are wildly aggressive. I've been in games where I don't think twice about mucking this hand in early as it will 100% come back capped to me. I'm not too keen on playing this hand out of position for 4 bets preflop against a field of 6-8 other players. In a typical game where the action is mild/normal this hand is usually worth a raise in EP especially if your raises are getting respect. If you cannot narrow the field down with a raise I think a limp is best though.

PokerPrince

[Soh]

I thought it'll take a little more time before you post AGAIN, but I was wrong.

Soh