5-10 NL: Deep stacks

[ML4L]

Hey all,

My take on the preflop debate that has broken out...

With 250 BB stacks, I will generally call here preflop with KQo. I do so in situations where I play better than my opponent after the flop. I don't mean that in the "I'm gonna call a raise with anything and 'outplay' the guy" sense. I mean it in this sense:

If I make top pair and it's no good, I'm not going to lose much money. If I make two pair and they're no good, I'm not going to make much money. So, the downside for me is limited. Now, let's look at the upside. If the guy is weak, I'm going to take the pot a lot of the time that neither of us makes a hand. I also have the potential to win a huge pot if I make a straight, which will always be the nut straight. Finally, if my opponent is opening in LP with a lot of hands, I'm going to dominate him some of the time and win some small pots with top pair, better kicker or trips, better kicker that compensate for the times that I drop small pots being outkicked by AK or AQ.

If you can't keep yourself out of trouble with marginal hands and/or your opponent is better than you after the flop, maybe you should let it go before the flop. Your downside might be large enough to outweigh the upside. But, if you know how to play out of position well and control your pots, KQo is plenty of hand to call with in this spot.

ML4L

[KaneKungFu123]

KQo cannot stand pressure OOP with big stacks.

It has very little semi-bluff equity.

With four people seeing the flop you are essentially playing to hit a straight.

[ QUOTE ]
at least you edited the stack depth after realizing it wasnt 150BB.

i am surprised that a winning player in party's 2k game would not see this is a clear call.

i won't expound myself, but i will suggest this:
if the stack sizes were each 500 BB, would you call?
if they were 1k BB?
or would you never call?
at what depth would you consider the the crossover point between calling and folding?

also, what range of LP opening hands would you give a standard player and 250BB stacks?

do you not have much experience outside of moderately shallow stacks?

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[gomberg]

Amen brother...

[chuddo]

3 to the flop. original LP raiser, sb, and you. not to sound like a douche-nit, but you continually are getting the basic facts of the hand correct.

since you are a winning player, i have a feeling if you were sitting there live with 3k, and a standard opponent raised in LP 2.5 more BB, and you looked down at KQo, you would instinctively throw a green-bird in there and take a flop.

[KaneKungFu123]

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Has he seen you CR with draws? If yes, then move in.


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um... no

[KaneKungFu123]

**waves white flag**

(you're right)

[ QUOTE ]
3 to the flop. original LP raiser, sb, and you. not to sound like a douche-nit, but you continually are getting the basic facts of the hand correct.

since you are a winning player, i have a feeling if you were sitting there live with 3k, and a standard opponent raised in LP 2.5 more BB, and you looked down at KQo, you would instinctively throw a green-bird in there and take a flop.

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[kagame]

you can take the "play AJ/KQ carefully" advice as literal truth, or you can take it with a grain of salt

either way the points made about the inherent weakness of the hand are valuable reminders

especially since in this hand the reverse implied odds become so incredibly apparent

Here is what I take to be the more important point:

playing any 21 hand with big stacks is going to be dangerous if you cannot release two pair, as your opponent is often going to have a monster set if he commits all his chips against you

and who wants that?

[thabadguy]

[ QUOTE ]
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Has he seen you CR with draws? If yes, then move in.


[/ QUOTE ]

um... no

[/ QUOTE ]
ugh dont know what the f*ck i was thinking, i apologize profusely.

[cero_z]

Hi neon,

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Then, a few hands ago, I raised UTG+1 w/ 7 6 , got reraised by a MP player, and open pushed an 8 7 7 flop, got called by reraiser w/ A K , and won another big pot.


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Stay the [censored] out of my game, please.

As for the hand, you can re-raise to 1100 or push. The purpose of making it 1100 is leaving him enough chips to move in on you with not that much (though he obviously has something here) if he thinks you're making a move. I might play it this way if I felt his range was a made hand, as opposed to a number of possible draws.

The push is good because KcQc puts possible straight flush draws out there, so he can't automatically give you credit for a big hand. I think this is the default play, even against a predictable villain who's probably drawing thin.

I doubt you were worried about being behind, but just in case, realize that you can see 2 Ks and 2 Qs, so 888 is your only set-worry. If he has it or KKK/QQQ, you're going broke, I think.

[mgsimpleton]

whoa. no. no. no.

call the raise, reevaluate on turn... don't know much of what to say, tough spot... but DO NOT PUT IN A 4th BET. he isn't calling with AA or AK anymore, you are too deep stacked, those days are over.

i don't know what my advice is other than pushing is horrible.