Flag Burning Amendment is Moving Forward

[Felix_Nietsche]

I'm not aware that any flags have been burned in this country at an anti-bush protest.
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Then you are in effort conceding that you're UNINORMED on this topic and there UNQUALIFIED to comment. Why should I give weight to any of your comments on a topic that you admit you nothing about? Watch some videos and educate yourself.
www.protestwarrior.com


Flag burners may love their country more then the Republicans.
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Mmmmmmm......So when a man beats his wife it may be because he loves TOO much. OK, you just persuaded me. You are right. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Just because you think a woman may dress slutty doesn't mean she is a slut.
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As for your poker analogy, poker teaches you to play the odds and make ASSUMPTIONS based on the odds. You don't get laid much do you? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


A person burns a flag as a political statement. That person likely wants to better their country.
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Ahhhhhhh!!! Here we agree! The person that burns the US flag is bettering the USA. He is alienating voters in the middle who find that behavior appalling so these voters look to vote for people opposed to these flag burners.


Not just unscientific... its also illogical and nonsensical.
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I thought it was a fun poll. Did you notice that people were more likely to identified flag burners with Democrat voters. LOL....just as I suspected. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


On another note, why do Republicans seem so insecure? They seem to constantly need to assert that they are more patriotic then others.
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I have not once asserted that I am more patriotic. But I have question the patriotism of flag burners and certain Democratic political leaders. Patriotism (love of country) is an essential trait of a political leader. To run for political office you must be a US citizen. To run for president, you must have been born in the USA. Why? People who love their country are more likely to do what is their country's best interest.


Meantime, so many of them seem to not understand things like one way to love your country is to protest when you think your country is erring.
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No one that I know of is against PEACEFUL protesting. BUT...people are against protesters who burn flags, commit vandalism, and physical assault counter protestors. Like I said, check out these videos.
www.protestwarrior.com
The Dutch chapter of protest warriors had to go underground because of threats of violence.


Or they propose things like amendments that curb one of the great American principles like freedom of speech.
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I'm against the flag burning amendment. Let these flag burners (who are mostly Democrat voters [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) make jackasses of themselves. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Felix_Nietsche]

Yes, but it's not the Democrats fault that many people associate them with the flag-burning fringe. If I told you that every murder of an abortion doctor drove people away from the Republicans because they are associated with being against abortion and the murders add to their image as right-wing lunatics, would you agree with that?
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Excellent!!! This is a very intelligent response!!!
Please make more posts (even though we probably agree on nothing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])
I think the Democrats have a 'love of country'(patriotism) problem. Not only because of these fringe protestors but mainly of the people that the Democrats elect. Dick Durbin comparing turning an air conditioner off and on to mass genocide smears US troops, emboldens the islamic fascists, and I would argue....gives aid and comfort to the enemy. His actions are less about love of country and more about scoring political points by smearing the Bush admin.

After returning from Vietnam, John F Kerry testimony to a house sub committee were a collection of gossip, lies, and half-truths. As a military officer he was obligated to report any attrocities and not to report an atttrocity was to commit a military crime himself. He lied. His lies fed the propaganda mills in Hanoi giving aid and comfort to the enemy. His funniest lie was in his autobiography claiming that he was listening to Nixon on the radio claiming there were no troops in Cambodia while he was in Cambodia. What made it funny was Nixon was not even president yet. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] An example of a half-truth was the 'attrocity' of firing .50cal machine guns at troops. When I was in the military, I was told it was against the Geneva convention to fire a .50cal at enemy troops. This was a stupid rule and it was common knowledge that you were to ignore tis rule. It is analogous to the adultry laws in NewYork (technically it is against the law to commit adultry in NewYork but no DA is going to enforce it).
His picture is in Hanoi War Crimes Museum as a hero. Kerry did not act like a person who loved his country.


I think it should be legal to burn the flag,
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We agree...


And I am proud to be a Democrat and a Massachusetts liberal.
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Good. It is nice to have people who are honest and proud of their politcal beliefs on this forum. I sometimes like listening to Alan Colmes on the radio because he is an admitted liberal who expresses his positions intelligently.
Several posters on the political forum (who are liberal) object to being called 'liberals' claiming it is equivalent to calling people n*ggers (please don't ask me to dig up these old posts, the search functions sucks!).


We can't control Michael Moore and Sister Souljah and the like.
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True.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Then you are in effort conceding that you're UNINORMED on this topic and there UNQUALIFIED to comment.

[/ QUOTE ] Actually, no. In several of the news articles about the amendment they have stated that flag burning incidents have been rare (or at least rarely observed/reported).

If you have some hard figures on the number of flags burned a year in the US and by which party please print them. Or if you're just making up stupid stuff, then admit as much. I said I haven't seen any, seen any stories on it and in this whole thread, only one person had and he linked to a story on it.

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Mmmmmmm......So when a man beats his wife it may be because he loves TOO much.

[/ QUOTE ] See, this is where you look stupid. (and I'm not trying to just sling insults, it really is illogical and dumb.) Burning a flag is not burning your country. Get it in your head that a flag is nothing more then a symbol. Burning a flag can be a criticism of the country. Don't be so ignorant to think that criticizing your nation and attacking its policies when they're wrong means you hate your country.

[ QUOTE ]
As for your poker analogy, poker teaches you to play the odds and make ASSUMPTIONS based on the odds. You don't get laid much do you?

[/ QUOTE ] But you don't make assumptions based on odds. You make assumptions based on your political prejudice. And I've been married for a few years now... so I don't laid much. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Ahhhhhhh!!! Here we agree! The person that burns the US flag is bettering the USA. He is alienating voters in the middle who find that behavior appalling so these voters look to vote for people opposed to these flag burners.


[/ QUOTE ] Clearly the concept goes over your head. Why do you assume that the flag burner can't come from the middle (I know the answer, I'm being rhetorical)? Second, they may initially be offended by his act but agree with his cause (which he may bring attention to.) Others may not be as sensitive as you to get so offended by a symbolic act. A lot of people are bright enough to realize that's its nothing more then speech.

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I thought it was a fun poll. Did you notice that people were more likely to identified flag burners with Democrat voters.

[/ QUOTE ] Yet, as you said its unscientific and meaningless. Couple that with your tendency to make erroneous illogical conclusions... what are you left with? I could argue that Democrats are more likely to be flag burners because they understand true patriotism more then the morons on the right who think real patriotism means never questioning your government and attacking anyone who ever does.

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I have not once asserted that I am more patriotic.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes you have. You do when you assert that Republicans are more patriotic then Democrats. (as does the website you posted.)

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But I have question the patriotism of flag burners and certain Democratic political leaders.

[/ QUOTE ] Yet nothing you have said has shown any understanding of patriotism nor have you show that any of these people don't love their country. You're just making baseless accusations and then patting yourself on the back.

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No one that I know of is against PEACEFUL protesting. BUT...people are against protesters who burn flags..

[/ QUOTE ] Burning a flag is peaceful.

[ QUOTE ]
commit vandalism,

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank God you weren't around when the Boston Tea Party happened, you would have rallying against the protestors.

[ QUOTE ]
Let these flag burners (who are mostly Democrat voters ) make jackasses of themselves

[/ QUOTE ] You're welcome to make all the assumptions you want. Youre welcome to think of them as jackasses. But that doesn't mean you don't show a piss poor understanding of patriotism and how our forefathers knew that free speech was specifically so that people could speak out against our country when it went off course. They thought it was the duty of the people to protest and protest loudly when the govt did wrong. They would have been the first people to burn a flag.

I would argue your very argument shows you lack a real understanding of why this country is great and therefore, you're a false patriot. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[andyfox]

"I think the Democrats have a 'love of country'(patriotism) problem."

This is precisely the attitude that, if prevalent, will undermine the Republicans' electoral victories and eventually put them back in the minority. Dick Durbin is a nobody. I venture to say that 90% of Americans had not heard of him until his recent speech.

Republicans worry about what Durbin said and what Kerry said, not the underlying policies. That our elected leaders who took us into Vietnam lied continuously from day one and were murderers is unimportant; but that guy Kerry, his testimony was beyond the pale. He said something about listening to Nixon; isn't it more important that Nixon jeopardized our country's defenses by going illegally and secretly in Cambodia? That Nixon and Lyndon Johnson were pathological liars who lied and cheated and stole their way into office repeatedly throughout their political careers and then disregarded the basics or our democracy by prosecuting an immoral, illegal law based on lies and murdering?

The truth is that the flack about Senator Durbin is completely politically motivated, no different than the flack about Senator Lott's remarks about Strom Thurmond or Lott's current troubles. The Republicans didn't make such a stink when one of their own said he understood why people are shooting judges, thus condoning the shootings by implication.

Criticism of certain foreign policies of a country does not equal not loving one's country. Blind acceptance of illegal and immoral policies does not equal loving one's country, and, in fact, may betray a lack of sympathy and a disdain for our country's ideals which have made it great.

[Felix_Nietsche]

This is precisely the attitude that, if prevalent, will undermine the Republicans' electoral victories and eventually put them back in the minority.
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We shall see won't we. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Dick Durbin is a nobody.
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Senate whip is 2nd in Command for the Democtats in the senate.


I venture to say that 90% of Americans had not heard of him (Durbin) until his recent speech.
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This is probably true. The Shawn Hannity radio program has a "man on the street Thursday" segment where they go on the streets of New York City asking people questions like:
*Who is the president
*Who is the vice-president
*etc...
The responses are both funny and alarming. Some people just should not be voting. In Brazil you are required by law to vote and you must prove you voted to even get a job. The result is every knucking-dragging-drooling-neanderthal votes. Brazil now has a socialist president. LOL! Could it be possible the Brazillian president does not know the cold war is over and that Adam Smith won and Karl Marx lost? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I believe the WSJ recently publish an article that Brazil's finance secretary has a free economy mentality so Brazil may have a chance financially.


Republicans worry about what Durbin said and what Kerry said, not the underlying policies. That our elected leaders who took us into Vietnam lied continuously from day one and were murderers is unimportant;
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Mmmmmmm.......Was it not the DEMOCRAT John F. Kennedy that got the USA into Vietnam. Was it not the DEMOCRAT LBJ that use the Gulf on Tonkin incident as an excuse to flood US troops into Vietnam? Was it not the REPUBLICAN, Richard Nixon that withdrew US troops from Vietnam?

You are correct that Nixon lied about missions in Cambodia but in war I am forgiving of leaders that bend the rules to win wars. During the cold war we used to paint bombers black and fly them into USSR territory on spying missions. This was against the 'rules' but cie la vie. Besides, the Viet Cong were using Cambodia as a sanctuary/supply base so Cambodia was hardly 'neutral'. Nixon was responding to illegal activity by the Viet Cong. He did not intiate the illegal activity, the Viet Cong did.


but that guy Kerry, his testimony was beyond the pale. He said something about listening to Nixon; isn't it more important that Nixon jeopardized our country's defenses by going illegally and secretly in Cambodia? That Nixon and Lyndon Johnson were pathological liars who lied and cheated and stole their way into office repeatedly throughout their political careers and then disregarded the basics or our democracy by prosecuting an immoral, illegal law based on lies and murdering?
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You giving me the bait-and-switch play.
I spoke of Kerry's lies and his less-than-patriotic (love of country) actions and you try to change the topic to Nixon. Also you pulled the "moral equilvalism" tactic that since Nixon lied about Cambodia then Kerry's lies are excused. Nice try. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
By the way, LBJ was a democrat. You know this...right?


The truth is that the flack about Senator Durbin is completely politically motivated, no different than the flack about Senator Lott's remarks about Strom Thurmond or Lott's current troubles.
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Not all 'politics' are bad. Durbin ticked a lot of people off with his comments. He is reaping what he sowed. As for Trent Lott, I'm not a big fan of him so when he stuck his foot in his mouth and lost his post, it didn't bother me.


The Republicans didn't make such a stink when one of their own said he understood why people are shooting judges, thus condoning the shootings by implication.
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I vaguely remember some story about this. Who was it? Just one Republican? Right? Unlike the Republicans there are a slew of Democrats making Durbin-like comments.


Criticism of certain foreign policies of a country does not equal not loving one's country. Blind acceptance of illegal and immoral policies does not equal loving one's country, and, in fact, may betray a lack of sympathy and a disdain for our country's ideals which have made it great.
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Freedom of speech is an American value.
But what you fail to understand is people like ME have freedom of speech as well. So I am free to criticize Democratic leaders. I am free to say Democrats like Durbin care more about scoring political points against Bush than care about saying things that will embolden the Islamic-fascists. In another post you called me a "false patriot". I feel no need to defend myself. I find the allegation rather silly. On the other hand, the defensesiveness that the Democrats display when their patriotism questioned is revealing.

[ptmusic]

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Unlike the Republicans there are a slew of Democrats making Durbin-like comments.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you make statements like this? What do you mean "Durbin-like"? Name this "slew" of Democrats and their respective Durbin-like quotes, please.

Democrats say outrageous things, and some of them are kooks.
Republicans say outrageous things, and some of them are kooks.

You say outrageous things, and....

ptmusic

[Felix_Nietsche]

Name this "slew" of Democrats and their respective Durbin-like quotes, please.
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Wow....This will take a while.
If I thought you were open minded and would look at the quotes in an objective way I might consider spending the time doing it.

Quotes would include Kennedy's Abu Gharib comments, move-on.org posts, Bush/Hitler comparisons, etc...
People making the cut would include Pelosis, Reid, Dascle, and my favorite HOWARD DEAN!!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[imported_The Vibesman]

I'm not going to pretend that I am familiar with Durbin.

As for Kerry, it's hard to ascertain what was true in his testimony and what was not. The lines have been blurred over the years, and honestly, I'm not sure that anyone involved in that whole debacle was telling the truth. I will say this though, I believe that Kerry was acting more in his own self-interest than out of some sort of hatred for America. Same with Moore, Pelosi, Durbin, and a lot of political hacks on both sides of the fence.

As for Dean, he's a psycho. I would hope he's a lightning rod for Republican criticism while the Dems try to move some candidates closer to the center so we may have a fighting chance against Jeb in '08. Dean may have been the only choice in 2004 that would have been worse than Kerry. The Dems seem to be shooting themselves in the foot over and over again...I'd switch to Libertarian if they weren't a bunch of psychos for the most part too.

It's hard to defend a lot of these people, on either side, which is why I think so many play the bait and switch, as we just saw...instead of defending yours, attack theirs. Attacks are easy.

I probably won't agree w/ Felix on much, but it seems people are debating him on whether flag burning should be illegal...he knows it shouldn't. I'm debating this whole Democrats Hate America thing. If Democrats hate America, why is it the Rebuplicans are the ones trying to take away conservative American institutions like states' rights (gay marriage, marijuana), freedom of speech (flag-burning), and the sanctity of marriage vows (Schiavo)?
Now I don't believe Repubs hate america either. But do you see how easy that was???

[ptmusic]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not going to pretend that I am familiar with Durbin.

As for Kerry, it's hard to ascertain what was true in his testimony and what was not. The lines have been blurred over the years, and honestly, I'm not sure that anyone involved in that whole debacle was telling the truth. I will say this though, I believe that Kerry was acting more in his own self-interest than out of some sort of hatred for America. Same with Moore, Pelosi, Durbin, and a lot of political hacks on both sides of the fence.

As for Dean, he's a psycho. I would hope he's a lightning rod for Republican criticism while the Dems try to move some candidates closer to the center so we may have a fighting chance against Jeb in '08. Dean may have been the only choice in 2004 that would have been worse than Kerry. The Dems seem to be shooting themselves in the foot over and over again...I'd switch to Libertarian if they weren't a bunch of psychos for the most part too.

It's hard to defend a lot of these people, on either side, which is why I think so many play the bait and switch, as we just saw...instead of defending yours, attack theirs. Attacks are easy.

I probably won't agree w/ Felix on much, but it seems people are debating him on whether flag burning should be illegal...he knows it shouldn't. I'm debating this whole Democrats Hate America thing. If Democrats hate America, why is it the Rebuplicans are the ones trying to take away conservative American institutions like states' rights (gay marriage, marijuana), freedom of speech (flag-burning), and the sanctity of marriage vows (Schiavo)?
Now I don't believe Repubs hate america either. But do you see how easy that was???

[/ QUOTE ]

NH

-ptmusic

[ptmusic]

[ QUOTE ]
Name this "slew" of Democrats and their respective Durbin-like quotes, please.
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Wow....This will take a while.
If I thought you were open minded and would look at the quotes in an objective way I might consider spending the time doing it.

Quotes would include Kennedy's Abu Gharib comments, move-on.org posts, Bush/Hitler comparisons, etc...
People making the cut would include Pelosis, Reid, Dascle, and my favorite HOWARD DEAN!!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, you named some names, but no quotes. I'd like to hear what you equate with Durbin's statements.

And why do you have the impression that I'm not open-minded? I said in my last post that some Democrats say outrageous things and are kooks. I've said in many posts that I have voted Republican. I used to be a registered Republican for that matter. And one conservative 2+2'er commended me on my open-mindedness and willingness to listen, which he called a breath of fresh air.

Are you so far to the right that even moderates seem close-minded to you?

-ptmusic