General "lead out on the flop" question

[BobboFitos]

why do you need a small overpair to lead out pot if your plan is to check/fold if called? (general question)

I'd rather do that as a bluff, I guess.

[imported_bingobazza]

Because its a weak hand, but not so weak that I wont take 1 decent pop at taking the pot down, but Im not committing a lot of chips in the face of significant strength from the preflop raiser. Its a tricky position, and Im definitely open to new ideas here if you have any (that dont involve a fee).

Cheers
Bingo

[soah]

And on a related note, why would you ever checkraise TPTK against a sane opponent on the flop? Only better hands will call you, and then you're probably drawing near dead. Seems like a waste to wait around for a good hand and then turn it into 72o once you have it.

[imported_bingobazza]

Maybe because they might fold to a bet, but have a pop at the pot if you check to them? It might also help to stop players calling behind you waiting for you to check flops so that they can bet with garbage, but i think you definitely need to know your player here.

Bingo.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
And on a related note, why would you ever checkraise TPTK against a sane opponent on the flop? Only better hands will call you, and then you're probably drawing near dead. Seems like a waste to wait around for a good hand and then turn it into 72o once you have it.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does check raising turn TPTK into 72?

The preflop raiser is going to bet the flop 90% of the time.

1) I can lead into him and he folds anything except hands that beat me (AA, KK, or AK)
2) I can check raise him which earns me the flop plus his inevitable continuation bet money.
3) I can check/call him...but then he gets to see the turn card for free. Its free because he already paid with his continuation bet. If I only call when I know Im ahead, and I dont raise him, then I am allowing him to see the next card at no additional price. Most times it wontmatter if he has something like JJ but why let him get anything for free?

4) I can check/call the flop with the intention of leading the turn, but that still allows him to get the turn card for no extra fee.

Lets put some numbers to this.
The pot is $38
1)..Lead the flop....I lead for $30. He folds anything but AA, KK, AK, or AQ most likely. If he calls, I have to bet another $60 or more at the turn. if he has me beat, he will raise for sure here and I lost $90 but had no chance to earn anything more than the flop money because he didnt get to make his continuation bet.
2) I check..he bets $30 and then I check raise to $90. if he calls, Im most likely beaten and can give uo still losing the same $90, but most times Ill have him beat and get the flop money plus his extra $30. How can this be the worse of these 2 options?
3) I check/call his $30. I lead the turn for $60. if he calls Im probably in trouble and it still cost me $90. This seems like the same as the check raise the flop option.

I think leading the flop is the worst of the 3 options

[soah]

If you checkraise the flop with TPTK, how often will you go to showdown, and more importantly, how often will you win at showdown? TPTK is a small pot hand, and you are making the pot big. You are representing a bigger hand than what you actually have, and you don't have much chance to improve (making two pair won't make any difference against your opponent's range of hands). I'd rather not use TPTK as a bluffing hand. It has more value than that.

[iceman5]

I disagree with you, but could change my mind if you told me what you would do and not just what you wouldnt do.

[soah]

I would either lead, or check/call, depending on other factors that I can't fully explain in just one post.

Just a couple quick thoughts:

If your opponent will always call you if you lead the flop and he can beat TPTK, then you should bet into him with all your draws because he won't raise you, and he might fold. So that's +EV. If he'll always raise your bets if he can beat TPTK, then you should lead into him with all of your really big hands.

You can't win at poker if your opponent always knows what you have, and all of your assumptions seem to imply that your opponent will put you on exactly TPTK and play perfectly against you. Obviously you won't make money off of TPTK if your opponent always puts you on it, but one of the following must be true: He always puts you on TPTK, and you can make money each time you have something else and cause him to make mistakes.... OR, he will sometimes put you on hands other than TPTK, and will make mistakes against you the times that you do have TPTK.

[swarm]

You have a serious "seeing monsters under the bed" syndrome going on...

Do you assume every preflop raise with ep limpers is a big hand? Since you rarely lead out flops Villan knows that you will defend the pot only if you have a big hand.

I make significant preflop raises with any two cards in late position if I know I can get heads up with someone I can get to fold. With your current play that would be you at this point.

You need to lead out flops whether you have the cards or not and not be afraid to raise someone that has when you got a solid hand.

The main reason to lead out flops are:

A) you can more often than you think take down a pot right then and there whether you made your hand or not.

B) When you do have a hand it will be disguised as people with second best hands will have taken notice to your aggressive style and think you are bluffing.



C) MOST IMPORTANTLY To eliminate the other good players at the table from trageting you as a weak tight player that they can make plays on all day long

If you get re-raised or called after leading out the flop then it becomes a read dependent game. Sometimes you have to let a pot go after leading out on the flop. The small amount of money you lose on leading out the flop comes back to you on getting paid off when you have a big hand and eliminates the gashing of your stack by other players making plays on you.

You have to make players uncomfortable to get engaged in pots with you heads up. You want them to know you are playing with your whole stack so they better be up to the challenge if they are going to try and take a pot away from you. You are currently just giving them away.

I make most of my money taking small to medium pots uncontested.

[Leptyne]

Example #1: I think half the time I'm going to be ahead on the flop, but he will have overcards. Half the time I'm going to check/fold. The other half that I'm going to contest the pot I'm going to represent that I have hit my pp 99. Now put yourself in MP and tell me how you're going to continue the hand when you're way behind.

Example #2: I think that a check raise would be a perfectly acceptable way to play this hand.

I think that UTG will often limp with AA, KK, and AKs and will call a raise with pairs down to 77 as well as AKns. This puts UTG in the unique position of being able to represent a wide range of hands. I think you have defined the perfect situation for the UTG to lead and represent a big hand, since only the weak hand will "check to the raiser".